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If it's only Drich arguing on this thread any more then it's not worth responding because he never learns.
It seems though that right wing Christians have lost the fight against gay rights and have chosen a new battleground, this time against a more vulnerable segment of society. I do find it heartening that so many people on these forums are so accepting of this medical condition.
The ignorant and the bigots here have argued that transsexuals should just accept themselves for who they are. But what they don't realise is that the whole process of transitioning is about accepting yourself to a degree that no one else has to ever go through. You may know from an early age what is wrong, but that doesn't mean to say that you accept it. Lots of transsexuals deny their true self in different and often disastrous ways. You don't need to look at gender identity to see how repression can really screw someone up. It is denying who you are that brings about the mass of psychological problems. Some just shut down and stop functioning as humans or kill themselves instead.
Then you need to come out to your friends and family who will be shocked at the news and will deny that it's the case. They will tell you that you will make an ugly woman or won't be ale to pass because they can't imagine you any differently. Things are better now that there is wide spread acceptance that the condition even exists, but just ten or twenty years ago most people didn't even know anything about it except what sleazy tabloids reported about it looking to titillate its readers. Or the mainstream media making you the go-to butt of jokes. You have to justify your very being to those closest to you who will most likely be in denial. You need to rely on friends and family for support through the most difficult time in your life. Studies show that successful suicide rates are highest amongst those who try to transition who do not have a supportive family. And bear in mind that attempted suicide rates are 41% for trans, compared to 20% for LGB and less than 5% for the rest of the population.
You then need to justify your very being to psychiatrists in order to obtain the means in which to transition. Historically many of these have been hostile even to the very concept of transsexuality. And professionals, like Zucker, Bailey and Dredger who have advocated conversion therapy, hold the key to your future. Without them, there won't ever be a you. You don't just need self acceptance, you need to have performed the utmost levels of self introspection and have utter confidence in who you are as a person because these people will be grilling you, looking for signs of doubt and any other reason to not give you the medical care that you need.
Then when you start to transition, the real struggle begins. People may be able to accept someone who passes in every way as a woman or a man, but they are certainly less accepting of those who do not. You need to live full time in your chosen gender for at least a year before you get reassignment surgery. In reality some psychiatrists don't even give you the hormone therapy to allow you to do this so there is no hope of passing. In practice it takes many more years in which you need to live full time and pre-op, unable to fully interact in your chosen gender because some part of your flesh must be kept secret.
Imagine venturing out into the real world for the first time when you first start to reveal your true self only to be stared at by absolutely everyone. This makes you more self conscious which in itself makes everyone stare at you. And there will be plenty of mistakes because you missed out on the most formative years as a teenager when mistakes were acceptable. Transitioning really is a second puberty, as if it was bad enough the first time round.
Then you need to justify and explain who you are as a person to colleagues. But also to bigots and those who prefer to stay ignorant because the whole thing creeps them out. This is the stage at which you are most vulnerable and which the laws in North Carolina make even more dangerous. This is the stage where physical and sexual abuse is most likely, which Drich revelled in suggesting could happen #239. This is the stage where many people have trouble emphasising with your predicament because you don't fit in with the strict gender codes of society. This is the stage where you really need support of family because you are unlikely to have any friends. Every aspect of how you interact with other people, your mannerisms, gait, your speech patterns and voice need to be relearned to be what they should have been in the first place. This is the stage when unbridled joy at finally beginning to live your life as who you truly are can come crashing down in an instant changing to utter despair because someone referred to you as Sir or Madam. This is when you need someone to pick you up and say that it gets better.
The physical discomfort can be enormous as well. If you need to remove facial hair then think of what a couple of hundred hours of electrolysis is like, having a needle go into each and every hair follicle several times to burn it away.
And through this whole process you need to go through absolutely every aspect of who you think you are and re-evaluate it. Is that aspect of your personality or preference how you have been conditioned from birth or part of who you are? Is your gait something you have learned to stop being beaten up on a regular basis at school? Do you have an aversion for a particular set of activities because you were always taught that boys / girls did not do them? Even down to what kind of music you like to listen to.
And after many years of this, when you finally do have the final operation it all threatens to come crashing down because of some administration detail or some people finding out and thinking of you as less of a woman or man. This is why calling trans-women men, or trans-men women is so offensive. It negates years of personal turmoil, agony and effort and puts them back at square one. This is why most transsexuals hide their medical history, so they can get on with their lives. Because even though transitioning is a huge undertaking that affects every aspect of your life, you still need to move on with your life. It can't become who you are. Until you go through this process you can't even live as a person. You need to go through all this just to reach the same starting block as everyone else even though the race begun many decades ago.
And then someone like Drich comes along and tells you that you should just accept who you are and that they are merely trying to get you to challenge what you think.
If it's only Drich arguing on this thread any more then it's not worth responding because he never learns.
It seems though that right wing Christians have lost the fight against gay rights and have chosen a new battleground, this time against a more vulnerable segment of society. I do find it heartening that so many people on these forums are so accepting of this medical condition.
The ignorant and the bigots here have argued that transsexuals should just accept themselves for who they are. But what they don't realise is that the whole process of transitioning is about accepting yourself to a degree that no one else has to ever go through. You may know from an early age what is wrong, but that doesn't mean to say that you accept it. Lots of transsexuals deny their true self in different and often disastrous ways. You don't need to look at gender identity to see how repression can really screw someone up. It is denying who you are that brings about the mass of psychological problems. Some just shut down and stop functioning as humans or kill themselves instead.
Then you need to come out to your friends and family who will be shocked at the news and will deny that it's the case. They will tell you that you will make an ugly woman or won't be ale to pass because they can't imagine you any differently. Things are better now that there is wide spread acceptance that the condition even exists, but just ten or twenty years ago most people didn't even know anything about it except what sleazy tabloids reported about it looking to titillate its readers. Or the mainstream media making you the go-to butt of jokes. You have to justify your very being to those closest to you who will most likely be in denial. You need to rely on friends and family for support through the most difficult time in your life. Studies show that successful suicide rates are highest amongst those who try to transition who do not have a supportive family. And bear in mind that attempted suicide rates are 41% for trans, compared to 20% for LGB and less than 5% for the rest of the population.
You then need to justify your very being to psychiatrists in order to obtain the means in which to transition. Historically many of these have been hostile even to the very concept of transsexuality. And professionals, like Zucker, Bailey and Dredger who have advocated conversion therapy, hold the key to your future. Without them, there won't ever be a you. You don't just need self acceptance, you need to have performed the utmost levels of self introspection and have utter confidence in who you are as a person because these people will be grilling you, looking for signs of doubt and any other reason to not give you the medical care that you need.
Then when you start to transition, the real struggle begins. People may be able to accept someone who passes in every way as a woman or a man, but they are certainly less accepting of those who do not. You need to live full time in your chosen gender for at least a year before you get reassignment surgery. In reality some psychiatrists don't even give you the hormone therapy to allow you to do this so there is no hope of passing. In practice it takes many more years in which you need to live full time and pre-op, unable to fully interact in your chosen gender because some part of your flesh must be kept secret.
Imagine venturing out into the real world for the first time when you first start to reveal your true self only to be stared at by absolutely everyone. This makes you more self conscious which in itself makes everyone stare at you. And there will be plenty of mistakes because you missed out on the most formative years as a teenager when mistakes were acceptable. Transitioning really is a second puberty, as if it was bad enough the first time round.
Then you need to justify and explain who you are as a person to colleagues. But also to bigots and those who prefer to stay ignorant because the whole thing creeps them out. This is the stage at which you are most vulnerable and which the laws in North Carolina make even more dangerous. This is the stage where physical and sexual abuse is most likely, which Drich revelled in suggesting could happen #239. This is the stage where many people have trouble emphasising with your predicament because you don't fit in with the strict gender codes of society. This is the stage where you really need support of family because you are unlikely to have any friends. Every aspect of how you interact with other people, your mannerisms, gait, your speech patterns and voice need to be relearned to be what they should have been in the first place. This is the stage when unbridled joy at finally beginning to live your life as who you truly are can come crashing down in an instant changing to utter despair because someone referred to you as Sir or Madam. This is when you need someone to pick you up and say that it gets better.
The physical discomfort can be enormous as well. If you need to remove facial hair then think of what a couple of hundred hours of electrolysis is like, having a needle go into each and every hair follicle several times to burn it away.
And through this whole process you need to go through absolutely every aspect of who you think you are and re-evaluate it. Is that aspect of your personality or preference how you have been conditioned from birth or part of who you are? Is your gait something you have learned to stop being beaten up on a regular basis at school? Do you have an aversion for a particular set of activities because you were always taught that boys / girls did not do them? Even down to what kind of music you like to listen to.
And after many years of this, when you finally do have the final operation it all threatens to come crashing down because of some administration detail or some people finding out and thinking of you as less of a woman or man. This is why calling trans-women men, or trans-men women is so offensive. It negates years of personal turmoil, agony and effort and puts them back at square one. This is why most transsexuals hide their medical history, so they can get on with their lives. Because even though transitioning is a huge undertaking that affects every aspect of your life, you still need to move on with your life. It can't become who you are. Until you go through this process you can't even live as a person. You need to go through all this just to reach the same starting block as everyone else even though the race begun many decades ago.
And then someone like Drich comes along and tells you that you should just accept who you are and that they are merely trying to get you to challenge what you think.
That was beautiful, Mathilda. If I someone can't empathize after reading that, they sure are a bigot, AFAIC.
April 13, 2016 at 1:01 am (This post was last modified: April 13, 2016 at 1:03 am by SteelCurtain.)
It's funny how history repeats itself, and funnier how Christians always use the same damn tropes in order to excuse their willful ignorance.
-early-
These bathroom/locker room fusses were the same idiocy used with gays in schools. Don't let gay boys in boys locker rooms, they'll look at my son's penis!
-later-
Same with gays in the military: We shouldn't let them serve in the military, because we have to be naked sometimes and they'll just be perving on my penis!
-now-
Don't let transgender women in my bathroom/locker room, they'll look at my vagina and attack me while I pee!
-early-
Leviticus 25:44 tells us to get our slaves from the nations around us, God has granted us the right to own slaves!
-later-
Daniel 2:42 says the iron shall not mix with the clay, interracial marriage is heresy!
-now-
The Bible says homosexuality is a sin! Marriage is one man and one woman! Heresy!
They'll soon alienate too many young people and there will be a revelation of tolerance. Gawd will all of a sudden have a change of heart.
The most ironic part is that homosexuality isn't a new phenomenon. They've always been in the bathrooms/locker rooms with us. Neither is gender dysphoria. There have always been transgender individuals in the world. Thank goodness some of us have the capacity for empathy to grasp how impossible it is to even come close to understanding what it is like to have to live in a state of physically/mentally feeling like your fucking body is wrong. I don't even know how to fucking start to comprehend that.
Fuck anyone who says they should just shut up and deal with it rather than being supportive and assisting them on a journey to be their true selves, whether that involves transitioning or not. That to me is the most galling thing about religion. It teaches you that because you read a verse in a book, you have the ability to speak for someone in a situation that you intentionally--willfully--know fuck all about. It teaches you to remove people's humanity so they can fit in a box of your choosing.
Gross.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
PM me your email address to join the Slack chat! I'll give you a taco(or five) if you join!--->There's an app and everything!<---
(April 13, 2016 at 12:25 am)Mathilda Wrote: If it's only Drich arguing on this thread any more then it's not worth responding because he never learns.
It seems though that right wing Christians have lost the fight against gay rights and have chosen a new battleground, this time against a more vulnerable segment of society. I do find it heartening that so many people on these forums are so accepting of this medical condition.
The ignorant and the bigots here have argued that transsexuals should just accept themselves for who they are. But what they don't realise is that the whole process of transitioning is about accepting yourself to a degree that no one else has to ever go through. You may know from an early age what is wrong, but that doesn't mean to say that you accept it. Lots of transsexuals deny their true self in different and often disastrous ways. You don't need to look at gender identity to see how repression can really screw someone up. It is denying who you are that brings about the mass of psychological problems. Some just shut down and stop functioning as humans or kill themselves instead.
Then you need to come out to your friends and family who will be shocked at the news and will deny that it's the case. They will tell you that you will make an ugly woman or won't be ale to pass because they can't imagine you any differently. Things are better now that there is wide spread acceptance that the condition even exists, but just ten or twenty years ago most people didn't even know anything about it except what sleazy tabloids reported about it looking to titillate its readers. Or the mainstream media making you the go-to butt of jokes. You have to justify your very being to those closest to you who will most likely be in denial. You need to rely on friends and family for support through the most difficult time in your life. Studies show that successful suicide rates are highest amongst those who try to transition who do not have a supportive family. And bear in mind that attempted suicide rates are 41% for trans, compared to 20% for LGB and less than 5% for the rest of the population.
You then need to justify your very being to psychiatrists in order to obtain the means in which to transition. Historically many of these have been hostile even to the very concept of transsexuality. And professionals, like Zucker, Bailey and Dredger who have advocated conversion therapy, hold the key to your future. Without them, there won't ever be a you. You don't just need self acceptance, you need to have performed the utmost levels of self introspection and have utter confidence in who you are as a person because these people will be grilling you, looking for signs of doubt and any other reason to not give you the medical care that you need.
Then when you start to transition, the real struggle begins. People may be able to accept someone who passes in every way as a woman or a man, but they are certainly less accepting of those who do not. You need to live full time in your chosen gender for at least a year before you get reassignment surgery. In reality some psychiatrists don't even give you the hormone therapy to allow you to do this so there is no hope of passing. In practice it takes many more years in which you need to live full time and pre-op, unable to fully interact in your chosen gender because some part of your flesh must be kept secret.
Imagine venturing out into the real world for the first time when you first start to reveal your true self only to be stared at by absolutely everyone. This makes you more self conscious which in itself makes everyone stare at you. And there will be plenty of mistakes because you missed out on the most formative years as a teenager when mistakes were acceptable. Transitioning really is a second puberty, as if it was bad enough the first time round.
Then you need to justify and explain who you are as a person to colleagues. But also to bigots and those who prefer to stay ignorant because the whole thing creeps them out. This is the stage at which you are most vulnerable and which the laws in North Carolina make even more dangerous. This is the stage where physical and sexual abuse is most likely, which Drich revelled in suggesting could happen #239. This is the stage where many people have trouble emphasising with your predicament because you don't fit in with the strict gender codes of society. This is the stage where you really need support of family because you are unlikely to have any friends. Every aspect of how you interact with other people, your mannerisms, gait, your speech patterns and voice need to be relearned to be what they should have been in the first place. This is the stage when unbridled joy at finally beginning to live your life as who you truly are can come crashing down in an instant changing to utter despair because someone referred to you as Sir or Madam. This is when you need someone to pick you up and say that it gets better.
The physical discomfort can be enormous as well. If you need to remove facial hair then think of what a couple of hundred hours of electrolysis is like, having a needle go into each and every hair follicle several times to burn it away.
And through this whole process you need to go through absolutely every aspect of who you think you are and re-evaluate it. Is that aspect of your personality or preference how you have been conditioned from birth or part of who you are? Is your gait something you have learned to stop being beaten up on a regular basis at school? Do you have an aversion for a particular set of activities because you were always taught that boys / girls did not do them? Even down to what kind of music you like to listen to.
And after many years of this, when you finally do have the final operation it all threatens to come crashing down because of some administration detail or some people finding out and thinking of you as less of a woman or man. This is why calling trans-women men, or trans-men women is so offensive. It negates years of personal turmoil, agony and effort and puts them back at square one. This is why most transsexuals hide their medical history, so they can get on with their lives. Because even though transitioning is a huge undertaking that affects every aspect of your life, you still need to move on with your life. It can't become who you are. Until you go through this process you can't even live as a person. You need to go through all this just to reach the same starting block as everyone else even though the race begun many decades ago.
And then someone like Drich comes along and tells you that you should just accept who you are and that they are merely trying to get you to challenge what you think.
April 13, 2016 at 1:23 am (This post was last modified: April 13, 2016 at 1:25 am by robvalue.)
Several people have hinted at a very real practical problem with trying to segregate people by genitals alone: people can lie. For example, I can just walk into the ladies' room, and if challenged, I'll say I'm actually "a woman". I have a vagina. I'm just also on male hormones and such. I've had lots of operations, making me look extremely like a man, I just haven't had sexual reassignment.
What are they going to do, insist I show them my vagina?
And this fucking garbage: "They will attack people!" But they don't. It's like, "Atheists would murder everyone! They have no morals!" But they don't.
As a side not, I'm fascinated by this idea that religion may be being classed as a mental illness. Is this for real? It's about time something was done to stop people getting away with negligence on religious grounds.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(April 13, 2016 at 1:23 am)robvalue Wrote: ... making me look extremely like a man,...
Well, now. Let's not get carried away...
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
PM me your email address to join the Slack chat! I'll give you a taco(or five) if you join!--->There's an app and everything!<---
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