(April 13, 2016 at 12:03 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 11:11 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: It's not hypocrisy. Many laws and policies are based on feelings, such as the stalking law I mentioned earlier (it must demonstrably cause "fear or alarm", in most statutes' wording), as well as laws about threats made.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Restraint orders do not get issued on whims; but rather, on perceived threats based on previous experiences, experiences that usually require some kind of independent support or documentation.

(April 13, 2016 at 11:11 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Besides it's not just about how they feel.  It's who they are at the deepest possible level.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you seriously going to argue that someone can have an essential nature, a soul as it were, that determines who the are independent of their physiology? In other words, are you making an existential distinction between mind and body?

Actually, I'm not.


Using functional MRI studied Burke brains of people with and without a so-called gender dystrophy. Burke: "It appears that the brains of these young people have characteristics that are closer to their perceived gender than their birth gender."

Burke did include smell the young people in the fragrance Androstadienone, found in male sweat. It is known that women only respond to this fragrance in a specific area of the brain. Burke: "This research shows that the brains of adolescents with gender dysphoria behave as their desired sex So. The brains of boys with gender dysphoria reacted indeed the fragrance and of the gender dysphoric girls is not in people without this condition. it the other way. "

(You'll have to use the "translate" button for the link: http://www.nu.nl/wetenschap/3802699/brein-jongere-in-verkeerd-lichaam-lijkt-van-andere-geslacht.html )

There have been similar studies done in gay men and lesbians which shows that they react to male and female pheromones, respectively, like the opposite gender does. It is clearly more than just "feelings", but even if it was just how the person identified, the fact that the feeling is SO STRONG as to cause something like GID, with associated suicide and depression rates, would be enough for most of us to offer them what they're asking for out of sheer human compassion, rather than making up straw-man arguments about why it's okay for us to treat them badly.

(April 13, 2016 at 9:08 am)Drich Wrote: you people kill me. If you do not understand what is being said then how can you hope to produce a whole page of topical dialog?

This coming from someone who says:

(April 13, 2016 at 9:08 am)Drich Wrote: Just like gay people not everyone with GID wants to change their sexual orientation. For those who want to find peace with their birth sex, their is treatment available.

Everyone else apart from you seems to recognise the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation.

(April 13, 2016 at 9:08 am)Drich Wrote: Ah, no. the first thing a responsible doctor will do is try and determine if the individual wants to transition or not.

How do you know what the first thing a responsible doctor will do? Have you ever spoken to a transsexual about the process? Have you ever gone to a gender identity clinic?

You're making this all up.

(April 13, 2016 at 9:08 am)Drich Wrote: Their are many triggers to GID and of the 'curable ones' (hormonal imbalance/brain chemistry imbalance) treatement has proven to be possible and some indivisuals go one to live very happy lives with their birth sex.
Again, treatment is based on what the person wants.

Citation required. Specifically as to what triggers exist for GID (or rather the causes of GID, triggers suggests that it comes on suddenly). And also citation required for people with GID who go on to live very happy lives with their birth sex

Again, you're making this all up. You know nothing about the subject.

(April 13, 2016 at 12:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 12:03 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: In order to make an anti-trans law, you'd have to establish that it's actual trans people who are seeking to enter other bathrooms for the purpose of committing a crime, rather than just to pee in the bathroom appropriate to how they dress and behave and think.

Not so. It depends on if there is a compelling state interest. If so, then laws that infringe on personal liberties may be enacted and enforced.

I'm well-aware of the "compelling state interest" concept. That's if the "strict scrutiny" test is applied, when a specific Constitutional right is to be abridged by state legislators.

You must, then, be well-aware that the courts found that (for instance) the states had no compelling state interest in restricting the private behavior of gays, in Lawrence v. Texas  in 2004, despite claims of danger from gays, and morality needing to be defended by the state.

(April 13, 2016 at 9:37 am)Drich Wrote: Is 2013 too old?
Again I always have 3 points of reference.

https://books.google.com/books?id=PTq8ZU...er&f=false

from page 40 forward supports what I've said here.

That link does not show page 40.

You're making all this up.

(April 13, 2016 at 12:08 pm)BlackBird Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 11:27 am)Drich Wrote: The narrative is that all trans gendered people are mentally incompetent.

My argument is that the mentally ill should not be making policy for 99% of society.

What you seem to be doing is making the jump that I think all transsexuals are mentally incompetent. I did not. I cited the Mayo clinic for my numbers. 1% of the population struggles with GID of that 1% a fraction seeks medical help (most of which because they want to get a sex change and can't without a Dr. signing off.) that means a majority who suffer from Gender Identity Disorder go untreated. That fall under the definition of a mental ill.

So then I ask a question if the mentally represent a majority of this Group (transsexuals/people who suffer from untreated GID) why are they making rules for everyone else?

Then I went on to say that those who indeed have surgery (meaning they have stepped through all the treatment and psyc evalus needed for surgery) can indeed use the other bathroom, and no laws need be changed because physically/technically they are man/woman

It is the mentally ill/untreated that should not be able to come and go when and where they please. let alone be allowed to influence or change a law that opens our women and children to any perv who want to put on a dress and do what pervs do in women's bathrooms.

Now does your evaluation reflect the facts I have made in this post or in this thread? the answer is no. That is why I observed that you were creating your own narrative.

So if they aren't mentally incompetent, why do you have a problem with them affecting policy like any other citizen?

Because we live in a country where the majority rules. those who got help number is the thousands maybe hundreds of thousands. verse the hundreds of millions their laws effect. Not to mention this law will allow those who have not received help the freedom to put it off even longer. And it opens the general populace to those looking to exploit the law and the oppsite sex.

For what?

How does society benefit here? or is just all about a political movement flexing it's power?

(April 13, 2016 at 11:58 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 11:33 am)Crossless1 Wrote: Yes, seriously. I know what 'dictate' means. I also understand the difference between "LGBT policies circumventing laws people in certain states want to put in place" and those same states walking back their policies in the face of corporate disapproval and possible loss of revenue. Yesterday, you were aware of this same distinction. How did you forget that quickly?

then if the LGBT community did not have anything to say about the laws the people in those states wanted to enact, then why were they walked back?

Who the hell said that the LGBT community had nothing to say concerning those laws? Obviously, they had strong opinions and many no doubt voiced them. But that wasn't decisive. They were walked back due to certain corporations (who happened to agree with the LGBT community on this issue) also having strong opinions and the wherewithal to hit the state in the pocketbook. Stop being disingenuous about this. We had this very conversation yesterday.

(April 13, 2016 at 9:40 am)Drich Wrote: Your an idiot to think all people who have GID want to be a transsexual. Just like not all people who have homosexual tendencies want to be gay or live a gay life style. So to do the people with GID may not want sexual reassignment.  especially if they know they can change the way they feel with hormone therapy.

No one wants to be transsexual. No one decides they want to be gay. Did you decide that you were heterosexual?

You don't even know the difference between sexual reassignment and being transsexual or gay.

(April 13, 2016 at 12:15 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 9:37 am)Drich Wrote: Is 2013 too old?
Again I always have 3 points of reference.

https://books.google.com/books?id=PTq8ZU...er&f=false

from page 40 forward supports what I've said here.

That link does not show page 40.

You're making all this up.

43-45 and page 49

(April 13, 2016 at 12:15 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 9:37 am)Drich Wrote: Is 2013 too old?
Again I always have 3 points of reference.

https://books.google.com/books?id=PTq8ZU...er&f=false

from page 40 forward supports what I've said here.

That link does not show page 40.

You're making all this up.

Drich lying through his teeth to make a point? Color me shocked. [emoji849]. God knows he's never done THAT here before.

(April 13, 2016 at 12:08 pm)Drich Wrote: Oh! that changes everything.. Untreated depression never hurt anyone!
  I guess now I should rethink about using untreated depressed people to baby sit or make life decisions for me and my family.

1) Why in the fuck would you assume they would be untreated? If they're reaching the phase where they're dressing as their identified gender and entering women's restrooms, the odds are REALLY good that they've been treated and (because they're finally able to act as their identified gender) no longer suffering from GID.

2) Depression is extremely common, and 80% of people who suffer from it do not receive treatment. You can rest assured that people already do babysit your family and make life decisions for you with depression, or some similar type of interaction.