(April 13, 2016 at 11:33 am)Crossless1 Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 11:29 am)Drich Wrote: seriously?

do you not know what the word means or are you unaware that lgbT policies are circumventing laws people in certain states what to put into place?

Yes, seriously. I know what 'dictate' means. I also understand the difference between "LGBT policies circumventing laws people in certain states want to put in place" and those same states walking back their policies in the face of corporate disapproval and possible loss of revenue. Yesterday, you were aware of this same distinction. How did you forget that quickly?

then if the LGBT community did not have anything to say about the laws the people in those states wanted to enact, then why were they walked back?

(April 13, 2016 at 11:34 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 10:58 am)Drich Wrote: Asked and answered (youve asked this already)

Maybe you did understand what I said.. so I'll dumb it down.

If dude trades his frank and beans in for a roast beef sandwich then s-he can use the lady's bathroom.

If dude is just playing dress up/lets pretend what is isn't then he has to hold it or use the mens room.

Lol, that was in no way an answer.  But thanks for trying.

surgery= can use
no surgery = can NOT use

You Understand Now?

(April 13, 2016 at 11:53 am)Drich Wrote: Two things you example is not one I've listed.

Second I have posted 3 local news stories of sexual assualts against women in bathrooms from supposed 'transgendered/pervs pretending to be.'

From a rape on the bathroom floor to some dude in a dress planting spy cams.

Don't tell me it's crap, it's happening now and local new agencies are reporting it. National news will not because they are trying to push the lgbt agenda.

Know why those dudes dress as women? Because they want to go into the women's bathroom and commit crimes. They are perverts. Even as the laws already are (and even where it is illegal to go into them if you have a penis), it doesn't change those guys' actions one little bit. If transgendered people were non-existent, those men would still dress as women in order to sneak into the women's bathroom.

In order to make an anti-trans law, you'd have to establish that it's actual trans people who are seeking to enter other bathrooms for the purpose of committing a crime, rather than just to pee in the bathroom appropriate to how they dress and behave and think.

As the other poster already pointed out, forcing trans people into the OTHER bathroom will cause distress because they appear to be in the wrong bathroom.

Trying to assert that it's okay to discriminate against trans people because of the actions of (straight male) perverts is like saying that you can't take your kids anywhere unsupervised by women because there exists such a thing as a child molester. It's ridiculous, and you'd (rightly) object to any law which tried to paint you with the same brush as a pervert simply because you have a penis.

(April 13, 2016 at 9:08 am)Drich Wrote: you people kill me. If you do not understand what is being said then how can you hope to produce a whole page of topical dialog?

What I'm saying is a minority of a fraction of the 1%ers who are transexual (those who are in treatment) should not be making policy for literally hundreds of millions of other people who do not nor ever suffered from a mental illness.

Still not making any sense to me, Drich. What the heck are you talking about when you say "making policy for hundreds of millions who have not suffered from mental illness? Transgender people do NOT make policy for everyone. Are you talking about asking others to respect them and their gender identity? Well, for all the shit they have to go through, I think that would be the humane.... wait, maybe the CHRISTIAN thing to do. 

Quote:lol... In what world does personal experience trump the research and help offered in the world's largest non-profit research and medical center?

Idk... maybe because I'm referring to TRANSGENDER people, as you pointed to in your OP that we're supposed to be discussing. And you my friend, seem to have gone off the rails referring to anyone who has gender dysphoria whether or not they are trans. The other people are not the focus of the discussion, are they? I'm sure it's possible there are people not transgender who get gender dysphoria and they need a therapist. But I was under the impression we were speaking of the transgender community, most of whom go to a therapist for the purpose of being diagnosed with gender dysphoria so that they can be prescribed hormones. The other faction is a topic of another discussion. 
And btw, no one is making anyone transition. It's an individual's choice. 

Quote:Wrong again. Just like gay people not everyone with GID wants to change their sexual orientation. For those who want to find peace with their birth sex, their is treatment available.

Excellent! That's exactly right, Drich. If they know they're not trans and just need some help, then that treatment is available for them. 

Meanwhile, trans people can get the hormone treatment THEY want in order to help them. Because if an individual is trans, then that's all that's going to work. 

Quote:Actually it's still the offical medical term.

 
the DSM V might have a different opinion on the matter. I prefer to stay up-to-date. If you'd like to stick to older editions, I would also suggest you check DSM 1, where homosexuality was listed as a mental illness. 

Quote:again, so what, not apart of the discussion.

Is the topic still transgenders? Then yes, it is. If a trans individual wants to transition, chances are transitioning will be the only thing that will help them be happier. And isn't that the whole point? Gay conversion therapy.... Oh, I'm sorry.... TRANS conversion therapy is ineffective. 

Quote:And so too is GID 'attacked' in those who do not want to 'transition.'

OH MY GOD. 

It is attacked in people who are TRANSGENDER. If you have gender dysphoria but you know you're not trans, then the statements I'm making do not apply. No one is forcing anyone to transition. If you go to a therapist and tell them, "I'm having problems with my gender but I'm not trans", then they won't recommend hormone treatment and instead they'll pursue a different route. Common sense works wonders, my friend. 

Quote:Ah, no. the first thing a responsible doctor will do is try and determine if the individual wants to transition or not.

Well if a person says "I don't want to transition, because I'm not trans", then once again, we're not talking about a trans person and it is irrelevant to the thread from looking at the OP. 

Quote: Again no. Their are many triggers to GID and of the 'curable ones' (hormonal imbalance/brain chemistry imbalance) treatement has proven to be possible and some indivisuals go one to live very happy lives with their birth sex.

Again, treatment is based on what the person wants.

I've made my point several times so I'm not going to do it again. 

We're not talking about people with gender dysphoria. We're talking about TRANSGENDER people suffering from gender dysphoria. If they want to transition, they're going to transition. No credible therapist will deny them that right. 

Quote:Yeah, because it is always a good idea to turn a blind eye to what you don't understand.

Oh the irony...

(April 13, 2016 at 11:11 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: It's not hypocrisy. Many laws and policies are based on feelings, such as the stalking law I mentioned earlier (it must demonstrably cause "fear or alarm", in most statutes' wording), as well as laws about threats made.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Restraint orders do not get issued on whims; but rather, on perceived threats based on previous experiences, experiences that usually require some kind of independent support or documentation.

(April 13, 2016 at 11:11 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Besides it's not just about how they feel.  It's who they are at the deepest possible level.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you seriously going to argue that someone can have an essential nature, a soul as it were, that determines who the are independent of their physiology? In other words, are you making an existential distinction between mind and body?

Counterfeit bills? This is your perception; your disgusting, dehumanizing caricature of these badly suffering individuals? They aren't even real people to you, are they? Even if your arguments were reasonable Drich, it wouldn't change the fact that you are a hateful, callous, unempathetic piece of human shit. I have NO doubt about that.

(April 13, 2016 at 12:03 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: In order to make an anti-trans law, you'd have to establish that it's actual trans people who are seeking to enter other bathrooms for the purpose of committing a crime, rather than just to pee in the bathroom appropriate to how they dress and behave and think.

Not so. It depends on if there is a compelling state interest. If so, then laws that infringe on personal liberties may be enacted and enforced.

(April 13, 2016 at 11:37 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 11:27 am)Drich Wrote: The narrative is that all trans gendered people are mentally incompetent.

My argument is that the mentally ill should not be making policy for 99% of society.

What you seem to be doing is making the jump that I think all transsexuals are mentally incompetent. I did not. I cited the Mayo clinic for my numbers. 1% of the population struggles with GID of that 1% a fraction seeks medical help (most of which because they want to get a sex change and can't without a Dr. signing off.) that means a majority who suffer from Gender Identity Disorder go untreated. That fall under the definition of a mental ill.

So then I ask a question if the mentally represent a majority of this Group (transsexuals/people who suffer from untreated GID) why are they making rules for everyone else?

Then I went on to say that those who indeed have surgery (meaning they have stepped through all the treatment and psyc evalus needed for surgery) can indeed use the other bathroom, and no laws need be changed because physically/technically they are man/woman

It is the mentally ill/untreated that should not be able to come and go when and where they please. let alone be allowed to influence or change a law that opens our women and children to any perv who want to put on a dress and do what pervs do in women's bathrooms.

Now does your evaluation reflect the facts I have made in this post or in this thread? the answer is no. That is why I observed that you were creating your own narrative.

Holy hells, dude. They're not mentally incompetent. Do you even know anything about GID? It's a condition like depression (also in the DSM-V) which affects the individual who has not transitioned for whatever reason. Being in the DSM doesn't make a condition psychotic in some way.

Read. About. It.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

Signs and symptoms

Symptoms of GID in children include disgust at their own genitalia, social isolation from their peers, anxiety, loneliness and depression. According to the American Psychological Association, transgender children are more likely to experience harassment and violence in school, foster care, residential treatment centers, homeless centers and juvenile justice programs than other children.

Adults with GID are at increased risk for stress, isolation, anxiety, depression, poor self-esteem and suicide. Studies indicate that transgender people have an extremely high rate of suicide attempts; one study of 6,450 transgender people in the United States found 41% had attempted suicide, compared to a national average of 1.6%. It was also found that suicide attempts were less common among transgender people who said their family ties had remained strong after they came out, but even transgender people at comparatively low risk were still much more likely to have attempted suicide than the general population. Transgender people are also at heightened risk for certain mental disorders such as eating disorders.

In 2014, a researcher found that the brains of adolescents with gender dysphoria react to the sex hormone androstadienone in a measurable way similar to the brains of people of the gender with which the person identifies.

(ETA: Internal citations omitted.)

Oh! that changes everything.. Untreated depression never hurt anyone!
  I guess now I should rethink about using untreated depressed people to baby sit or make life decisions for me and my family.

(April 13, 2016 at 11:27 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 10:20 am)BlackBird Wrote:  

Fair enough, there are lots of people in this thread. You accuse me here of making up a narrative. I was specifically addressing your question about people with mental illness making policy and strong implications that transgender people are basically mentally incompetent. I was just wondering what "narrative" I have made up because if I have misunderstood you, I'd like to address that.

The narrative is that all trans gendered people are mentally incompetent.

My argument is that the mentally ill should not be making policy for 99% of society.

What you seem to be doing is making the jump that I think all transsexuals are mentally incompetent. I did not. I cited the Mayo clinic for my numbers. 1% of the population struggles with GID of that 1% a fraction seeks medical help (most of which because they want to get a sex change and can't without a Dr. signing off.) that means a majority who suffer from Gender Identity Disorder go untreated. That fall under the definition of a mental ill.

So then I ask a question if the mentally represent a majority of this Group (transsexuals/people who suffer from untreated GID) why are they making rules for everyone else?

Then I went on to say that those who indeed have surgery (meaning they have stepped through all the treatment and psyc evalus needed for surgery) can indeed use the other bathroom, and no laws need be changed because physically/technically they are man/woman

It is the mentally ill/untreated that should not be able to come and go when and where they please. let alone be allowed to influence or change a law that opens our women and children to any perv who want to put on a dress and do what pervs do in women's bathrooms.

Now does your evaluation reflect the facts I have made in this post or in this thread? the answer is no. That is why I observed that you were creating your own narrative.

So if they aren't mentally incompetent, why do you have a problem with them affecting policy like any other citizen?

(April 13, 2016 at 11:39 am)Crossless1 Wrote:

(April 13, 2016 at 11:34 am)Drich Wrote: IDK how you do not understand this yet, but I use proper/offical terms when I speak/write. I also choose my words very carefully and use them in accordance to their actual definitions.

As of 11:33am est on 4-13-16 GID is the proper clinical term. That is what I am going with till it changes.

Well then, I look forward to your re-evaluation of your entire line of reasoning when the normative source of clinical terms in the psychological/psychiatric communities drops the bottom out of your argument.

Somehow, though, I doubt you will be so scrupulous about using proper terminology when the time comes -- soon.

if you think those changes will make a difference in my arguement then you do not understand it's core principle.