(April 14, 2016 at 10:07 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: We are still talking about trampling on one group in order to prevent crimes that have not shown to be correlated to the absence of these laws.

It wouldn't fly in any other scenario, but somehow, since we're just beginning to talk about transgender issues as a society, guess which group is dragging back progress?

It would be nice if once, just once, religion could be on the leading edge of social change.

SC - Easy with that crazy-talk, man! 

(April 14, 2016 at 9:59 pm)Vincent Wrote:

(April 14, 2016 at 9:14 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well, my argument applies to physical sex, not just biological sex. This does not apply to people who have had a sex change. Those people, by all means, can and should use the bathroom that matches their identity.

As for the rest, again, it wouldn't "encourage it." I never used that word and it's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, it would make it easier for the perv to pull off going into women's restrooms.  Because then he wouldn't even need to look like a woman. He could just put on some lipstick and padded bra and walk right into a women's bathroom or lockerroom. And no one would question it because they would just assume he's a trans.

Your reasoning is becoming more and more ridiculous. 

The instances of someone abusing anti-discrimination laws in order to be perverted are almost unheard of. You are exaggerating the amount of danger the public would be in if we allowed trans people equality and dignity by a whole lot. Like, a whole lot. There is little to no evidence or statistics to show that trans people using the correct bathroom will lead to perversion. Look at the freaking UK, where people use whatever bathroom they feel comfortable in. And how much of a problem are perverse assholes? Oh yeah. It's not a problem there. 

Do you honestly think pulling a story off the internet of a scenario that rarely actually happens is going to help you? I might applaud you if you could find TEN different and separate accounts (most of which I'm sure will be from anti-trans far-right conservative news articles) of a man disguising himself as a woman so he could sneak into their bathroom. Why? Because it's a non-issue. Happens a couple times a year in a country that has about a billion public restrooms. 

But do you know what is an issue? Trans people being denied equality. And how many of them will suffer every year if more anti-trans bathroom laws are passed? All SEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND that are estimated to be in the U.S. right now. What do you have to say for those people? "Sorry, tough luck. Just gotta suck it up." You are trying so hard to sound fair and compassionate towards trans people... but you're not. You really don't care about them at all. 

This remind me very much of the craze leading up to the legalizing of gay marriage. All these conservatives riding their paranoid-ass slippery slopes:
"If we allow this, what's stopping incestuous marriage??"
"If we allow this, straight marriages will go extinct!"
"If we allow this, children will be traumatized, and the family unit will break apart!"
"If we allow this, what's stopping two women and a man all marrying each other??"

But here we are, approaching a year later, and how much of that has come true? How many of those fears were justified? 

Oh, right, none of them. The world is turning the same as it was yesterday, but with greater justice and a step further for the gay community. 
Time to watch history repeat itself. 

Sorry, C_L, but transgenders WILL get equal bathroom rights. It might take a couple years... might take decades.... but human society is ever progressing, always moving forward. Change is inevitable, whether it occur today or tomorrow, and whether or not you like it.

Yeah, I mean what's next? Transgendered males can't walk next to women on the streets after sundown, because it might be a rapist in disguise? I can think of PLENTY (too many) "easier" scenarios for a rapist to commit rape than dressing himself up in full drag...

I like that pig.

(April 14, 2016 at 8:56 pm)Bella Morte Wrote:

(April 14, 2016 at 8:27 pm)Sterben Wrote: People with modified bodies, they pose no general threat to others and they assume all the risks with there life choices. It's not a matter of you agree or disagree with those choices, it's a matter of if you can accept them as people in society. The assumption of all the medical risks falls on them and there choice to undergo a sex change operation. Should it be covered by a insurance? I don't think so, cosmetic surgery is not covered unless a rare criteria presents its self. A sex change would never fit it as a "necessary" surgery. John who weighs 500 pounds and is at risk would be covered for his surgery to lose weight, John who is a healthy and wants to become Jane cause he feels he is a woman on the inside, should not be covered under his PPO or HMO for a sex change. He would have to pay 100% out of pocket for the sex change. The bathroom issues are out of hand, a simple way of fixing it is this. If John who is now Jane still has a penis, he is still a he and has to use to the Men's room, if he has gotten his penis removed, he is a 100% legal woman and can use the Woman's restroom. Same goes for Jane who is now Jack.

I just don't think trans people should be forced to have SRS to use the bathroom that suits their gender, and it's worth noting that most places (well, in my country anyway) don't provide a third bathroom.

Not everyone experiences dysphoria when it comes to their genitals, some only want top surgery and we should respect that. Some don't experience dysphoria at all.

There are also risks to the procedure and some people just decide it isn't worth it.

         Third party bathrooms are a unnecessary cost to employers, in the U.S people can claim lawsuits for facilitates not providing them. I disagree with some aspects of the LGBT community, they have a lot of valid points and some points that are nonsense. If your a man who wants to dress like a woman and get breast implants that's fine, at the end of the day your still a male no matter what you change your name to. Transgenders are still people that deserves rights and protections. These protections can only go so far though, they still have to deal the repercussions of there choices, in the aspect of society. They can't always sue for be denying jobs, no matter how accepting we become as a society there will always be the aspect of protecting your business. If a transgender person wants to work for a daycare facility, it stands a high chance that person would hurt there business; no matter how professional they are, appearance still plays a major part in face to face business's. A homosexual man or woman can look normal by our society standards, a transgender person does not have many choices there since those changes take a long time to effect. Since the process is not a easy transition (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-y...ery-works/).

(April 13, 2016 at 11:14 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think it's a mental illness, but I think they should be treated with utmost respect and allowed to go through procedures to change their gender. I don't believe it's the fault of the person.

We are to be compassionate to one another for the trials we are in. I have schizophrenia and bipolar and to be honest, prefer that, over being  stuck with wrong physical gender. It's one of the worse things I can imagine going through.

However that is not to disrespect the person. I have great respect to those who seek help of others, acknowledge their issue and change their gender realizing they are being true to themselves as best as possible.

Being a man stuck in a woman's body and being a woman stuck in man's body is a disorder and it's of mental type, but this just semantics.

Whatever you call it, you shouldn't disrespect the person for it. It's definitely not their fault.

It's a disorder; indeed. But it's the person's fault to become so caught up in the act.

I know what I feel. I crossdressed before, and was about to have sex with other males. I hate males who are not feminine, but I would enjoy a bottom experience.

I wasn't like this before. It began in Middle school. I began anal insertions while watching porn, lack of women and touching feminine boys in school kinda made me jump to try. There are no dildos in Saudi Arabia, so...you can guess: I used cucumbers >< 

A little by little, transexual porn became an addiction. I then began to watch hypnos -a type of porn videos that suppose to brainwash you into something else-, mmm, and then I began shaving my body, created adult accounts on sexual sites, and eventually became the bi I am now.

I remember every tiny detail. Hentai and and futanari stuff did wonders.
I'm trying to quit this lifestyle now, but it did become a "lifestyle".

I know that each of us have different point of views in terms of religion, I know too that members here are atheists mostly, but I know that the forum is about discussing religion, and I know what I desire too. 

But if you are speaking from an "Islamic" point of view, "homosexuals" were described like this in the Quran:

Sura 7
( 80 )   And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?
( 81 )   Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

Sura 27
( 54 )   And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Do you commit immorality while you are seeing?
( 55 )   Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are ignorant folks.

Sura 29
( 28 )   And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Indeed, you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds.
( 29 )   Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings [every] evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah, if you should be of the truthful.

Religiously, I think Islam was pretty obvious about it. Immorality, transgression and an ignorant act.
If it's your opinion, believe I have nothing against that, I myself might fall for a transexual now or in the future. I already fell for girly boys before.

But as a person who reads the Quran constantly, I have to mention these verses.

If it's not the person's fault, it's the fault of somebody, society perhaps ? I believe that.
Saudi Arabia did some nasty things to my sexual desire. I can date every fetish I have to an event..

Ah..just wanted to speak my mind.

Natalie Mars. Bailey Jay became old news

(April 15, 2016 at 1:34 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

---

(April 13, 2016 at 11:14 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think it's a mental illness, but I think they should be treated with utmost respect and allowed to go through procedures to change their gender. I don't believe it's the fault of the person.

We are to be compassionate to one another for the trials we are in. I have schizophrenia and bipolar and to be honest, prefer that, over being  stuck with wrong physical gender. It's one of the worse things I can imagine going through.

However that is not to disrespect the person. I have great respect to those who seek help of others, acknowledge their issue and change their gender realizing they are being true to themselves as best as possible.

Being a man stuck in a woman's body and being a woman stuck in man's body is a disorder and it's of mental type, but this just semantics.

Whatever you call it, you shouldn't disrespect the person for it. It's definitely not their fault.

It's a disorder; indeed. But it's the person's fault to become so caught up in the act.

I know what I feel. I crossdressed before, and was about to have sex with other males. I hate males who are not feminine, but I would enjoy a bottom experience.

I wasn't like this before. It began in Middle school. I began anal insertions while watching porn, lack of women and touching feminine boys in school kinda made me jump to try. There are no dildos in Saudi Arabia, so...you can guess: I used cucumbers >< 

A little by little, transexual porn became an addiction. I then began to watch hypnos -a type of porn videos that suppose to brainwash you into something else-, mmm, and then I began shaving my body, created adult accounts on sexual sites, and eventually became the bi I am now.

I remember every tiny detail. Hentai and and futanari stuff did wonders.
I'm trying to quit this lifestyle now, but it did become a "lifestyle".

I know that each of us have different point of views in terms of religion, I know too that members here are atheists mostly, but I know that the forum is about discussing religion, and I know what I desire too. 

But if you are speaking from an "Islamic" point of view, "homosexuals" were described like this in the Quran:

Sura 7
( 80 )   And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?
( 81 )   Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

Sura 27
( 54 )   And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Do you commit immorality while you are seeing?
( 55 )   Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are ignorant folks.

Sura 29
( 28 )   And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Indeed, you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds.
( 29 )   Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings [every] evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah, if you should be of the truthful.

Religiously, I think Islam was pretty obvious about it. Immorality, transgression and an ignorant act.
If it's your opinion, believe I have nothing against that, I myself might fall for a transexual. I already fell to boys before.

But as a person who reads the Quran constantly, I have to mention these verses.

If it's not the person's fault, it's the fault of somebody, society perhaps ? I believe that.
Saudi Arabia did some nasty things to my sexual desire. I can date every fetish I have to an event..

[color=#000000]Ah..just wanted to speak my mind.[/

---

Jeez, you sure went into detail..

This discussion has been very enlightening for me, on all sides.

I find it somewhat ironic that the theists in the thread, in general, have a more negative spin on someone feeling the desire/need to be transgender. They are describing how incompetent or cruel their alleged designer is, to have set things up this way. Of course, they will find a way to excuse the designer from any responsibility, as usual. The atheists, in general, seem far more accepting of people how they are, regardless of whether it's a "condition" or a choice for any particular person.

Of course, I don't take our forum theists to be representative of theists in general.

(April 15, 2016 at 1:43 am)robvalue Wrote: Of course, I don't take our forum theists to be representative of theists in general.

Almost gave a kudos. xD