And the biggest flaw is religious shitheads who think they have all the answers.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:15 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Once again, you don't see widespread rioting in the US and elsewhere over this.

While the rioting may seem like an overreaction, people are forgetting everything else that that the Afghans have endured and are angry about. Remember that the country has faced years of invasion and exploitation of resources by American soldiers. Thousands of civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan, in particular, have been killed in drone strikes and botched operations. It all adds up and the book burning is just an icing on the cake.

It obviously isn't worth killing people who had nothing to do with it, which of course, plays right into the hands of Terry Jones. This is what he wanted. And yet, maybe, he wasn't quite able to satisfy his goal because he may have expected the violence to be even deadlier and wanted a significantly greater number of Muslims to riot over this.

Well said Rayaan. Apparently, something that is most hard for Americans and Europeans alike is for them to understand why the Umma, on average, is so damn angry with anything Western. It doesn't seem to occur to us that the rag heads over there don't like indiscriminant destruction of their lands, their people; It also doesn't occur to us that they're very, very well aware of when our corporations and actions rape their resources, etc,.

Some of it is true. Some of their anger is direct towards things that are untrue. But it still doesn't change the fact that most of the Umma really fucking doesn't like the west, in particular, America. Which is why troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are finding among dead militants people from the other side of the world, like Indonesia -- they've traveled there to assist in defensive jihad in any way they can.

On a slightly related topic, has anyone else wondered at how stupid one has to be to attempt to bribe off Afghan tribal chieftains, especially when they've been cozy with the Taliban and friends -- one cannot help but suspect that they are taking the money and funneling it to jihad.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:42 pm)tackattack Wrote: Min and CP
It rally doesn't matter whether God or the Devil told him to do it. He still chose to do it, and is therefore personally liable for the ramifications of his actions. He may claim great rewards in heaven for his actions or a seat next to Satan himself in the afterlife, but that doesn't deal with the here and now or reality much now does it. I say charge him with something under the riot act. If he claims clergy have his license revoked then charge him with insighting a riot and culpable for reckless homicide

Just wondering exactly what kind of law he broke? He burnt a book. Did he start a riot in America? How do you charge him for doing something that isnt illegal in America?

No, honestly, if this man broke a law, then lets put him in jail. The problem is, I dont see a single law he broke.

America does not enforce Afghani laws. Afghanis went balistic and went on a murdering spree. The only crime I see being commited is afghanis' murdering people. How can you charge a man with starting a riot.. in another country? Do we charge him by our laws our afghanis laws? How can the govt "take his license" from him? The government can step into a church and say who can be clergy and who cant be?

Honestly..what law did this man break? How can you get him for a reckless homicide when he is in Florida and the afghanis are on the other side of the word? Honestly, do you think reckless homicide will succede against this man?

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http://www.examiner.com/people-the-news-...ning-video



Afghanistan’s president Hamid Karzai is denouncing the behavior of American Pastor Terry Jones saying it was "an act of extreme intolerance and bigotry". Afghanistan’s president Hamid Karzai said,he is “calling on the US Congress to condemn a Christian preacher's burning of the Koran.” "We condemn, in particular, the action of an individual in the United States who recently burned the Holy Quran," said the statement issued by military commander Gen. David Petraeus and the top NATO civilian representative in Afghanistan, Mark Sedwill. "We further hope the Afghan people understand that the actions of a small number of individuals, who have been extremely disrespectful to the Holy Koran, are not representative of any of the countries of the international community who are in Afghanistan to help the Afghan people," the statement said.

Not anywhere in his speech did he condemn the murderers, suicide bombers, or the burning of effigy of Obama. Apparently those are not extremely intolerant, bigotted, disrespectful acts.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:50 pm)Thor Wrote: The fact that we see rioting ANYWHERE over this says a lot about the mentality of folks exposed to this religion.

That sounds like a generalization.

Also, you have to consider the cause behind the rioting as well, not just the people who are doing it.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:50 pm)Thor Wrote: "May SEEM like an overreaction"? Someone burns a book, so you kill people who had nothing to do with the book burning?

It seems like an over-reaction and could be an over-reaction, but I never said it wasn't. I do agree it's an over-reaction.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:50 pm)Thor Wrote: Not to mention the absurdity of even killing the person who burned the book.

Yes, that would be more absurd.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:50 pm)Thor Wrote: So what? How does burning a book justify murder?

I never said it does. I already stated that I don't agree with all this rioting and killing.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:50 pm)Thor Wrote: What "exploitation of resources"?

Oil reserves and untapped minerals, for example, as well as for strengthening their political objectives in the region.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:50 pm)Thor Wrote: And the killing of civilians by drones is annoying, but a book burning sends them over the edge? Yeah, makes sense to me.

Like I said before, it all adds up and the Quran burning is only a small part of the story. But again, this is not to say that what the Afghans did is acceptable either.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:50 pm)Thor Wrote: And Muslim followers were more than eager to act like barbarians.

An overstatement + generalization.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:50 pm)Thor Wrote: Terry Jones is an asshole. But he didn't kill anybody for burning a book.

But he intentionally provoked them and you don't have to kill or physically hurt people to incite them to violence. Burning the Quran can be quite hurtful to some of the Muslims.

(April 4, 2011 at 2:54 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Generally I agree with what you wrote, Rayaan. However, you might pause to give some thought to the fact that muslims are so easily manipulated into acting like murderous fools by silly gestures like this. It is easy to pull your strings because you DO overreact to bullshit like this.

Well I agee with that also, a lot of the Muslims are easily manipulated by things like this.

And I believe that the reason for such violence is mostly caused by socio-political related issues than anything else because it varies from one place to another.

(April 4, 2011 at 3:07 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Now, I understand exactly what you are saying..but please dont tell me you think any of this is new. Since when have afcrapistanies NOT been doing things like this? They were doing this crap even when we were helping them fight off the Soviets in the 80's.

Maybe that's true but I'm not aware of that particular event or period of history in Afghanistan. So, I can't comment on that right now.

All this is: a sad old man looking for attention.
He's like a small child. Ignorant and arrogant.

No he's not culpable for anything some crazy extremists 6000 miles away did. He was warned that it would cause violence. He admitted to knowing people would be incited. He admitted that it was for "stirring" the pot and added nothing to debate only to his publicity, and now people are dead because of it. US civilian workers and soldiers are in danger of it. I hear he's talking about burning Muhammad for the annual celebration.
The President has the right to disperse any intentionally incited gathering. I say he uses it. We all know free speech isn't really completely free. You can't yell Fire in a movie theater, libel or slander. Free speech is incompatible with hate speech.

Dumbass Wrote:'Did our action provoke them? Of course. Is it a provocation that can be justified? Is it a provocation that should lead to death?
'When lawyers provoke me, when banks provoke me, when reporters provoke me, I can’t kill them. That would not fly.'

If he knew it would lead to death, and that he had no justification for burning it, wasn't that clearly by definition hate speech? I say, he threw away his rights when he endangered more people than are in his congregation. Not to mention it actually fuels more people's hatred of Christianity and the USA. True nothing illegal, I think hate speech is a good shot though. Regardless, total asshole move. I say we start issuing out first amendment cards.. and when you do crap like this it gets revoked for a year.

(April 4, 2011 at 8:21 pm)tackattack Wrote: No he's not culpable for anything some crazy extremists 6000 miles away did. He was warned that it would cause violence. He admitted to knowing people would be incited. He admitted that it was for "stirring" the pot and added nothing to debate only to his publicity, and now people are dead because of it. US civilian workers and soldiers are in danger of it. I hear he's talking about burning Muhammad for the annual celebration.
The President has the right to disperse any intentionally incited gathering. I say he uses it. We all know free speech isn't really completely free. You can't yell Fire in a movie theater, libel or slander. Free speech is incompatible with hate speech.

Okay. So the president has the power to step in and stop a gathering? Even though it is peaceful? He didnt throw his rights away. What it looks like is that YOU have thrown his rights away. The President cant step in and stop a peaceful gathering, and to suggest otherwise is a power I dont want to give to the president.

Lets be honest. This pastor turned his church into a court room. This is private property with a peaceful gathering to do a legally protect first amendment expression. Honestly, I cant see where the president can do anything, and if he did..man...not only would I be VERY upset at him, but the vast majority of Americans as well.

Is there any kind of crime you can pin on this man without suggesting the president become a dictator and tossing out the rights and rule of law? I honestly cannot think of ANY crime you can put on him without ignoring decades of precedence and jurisprudence.

Maybe they can claim he is a terrorist. If they did that he would loose all of his rights, even to see a lawyer, and can be held indeffinitely in Guantanimo bay and be tried with hearsay as evidence. Yeah, the President can pull the patriot act on him. This pastor is high profile. It would be a very difficult situation for the Obama administration to explain how this Pastor is suddenly a terrorist enemy of the state.

Yup..Patriot act...the only law I can think of that we can legally imprison this pastor.

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(April 4, 2011 at 8:57 pm)tackattack Wrote: I split the thread to merge it with the other thread already going on about the FL pastor burning the Quran, we'll keep this thread focused on the raping type of theist.

Good idea..I was starting to get a bit dizzy headed jumping back and forth.

It's peaceful?
If someone tells me people will die if I do X in this way; and instead of Y or X in a different way, I do X exactly how they didn't want it done with the expressed intent to incite them to react as they said they would.

That by my definition is not a peaceful protest. It's flagrant abuse of free speech. It's inciting a riot with hate speech. Cooler, smarter heads should prevail.

Let me give you an example, 2 dumb ass rednecks (or insert your own generalizations there)each made a huge bomb. They argued over some stupid family heirloom and started some family feud. Now the mayor can sit there and watch the idiots reckless attack each other but once one of them says they'll use that bomb (which will destroy the rest of the city) Wouldn't the mayor have the obligation to stop reckless abuse from damaging innocent civilian populations and bystanders of the blast?

Quote:If someone tells me people will die

And that was the terrorists who made the threat. It wasnt an "if such and such happens, people will die" - it was an "You will NOT do this or we will kill people" There is a big difference. One is being careless and the other is refusing to be frightened by a threat. If someone said "Dont you dare pray in public or their blood will be on your hands" would you be thinking the same way about this? If someone went ahead and prayed would you consider it hate speech if the terrorist went on a killing spree like mad dogs? Would you blame the one who prayed? Praying is first amendment protected. Burning korans is first amendment protected.

Fine. Lets say you are right, and this is NOT a peaceful protest. Then that means the man can get arrested for doing this.

Why hasnt he been arrested?

Your example already has an illegal object in it..a bomb. The Mayor would not think twice about calling in a bomb squad. How does a bomb equate to burning a koran? Making a bomb is NOT second amendment protected. Burning a koran IS first amendment protected.

You're right about the legalities, Rev.

Of course, that shithead preacher should not then complain if some muslim shoots him in the fucking head, should he?