You don't need to be muslim to be a misogynist asshole. You don't even have to be religious to deserve that title. As I said before, the largest part of the world still fits the bill. And who are we to ride the high horse, given our own, very recent past, and given the assholes still being vocal within our own society. We should speak out against it, but we certainly shouldn't assume to be any better.

(May 7, 2016 at 7:21 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: There are too many Imams receiving money from Qatar and Saudi. The West needs to stop foreign funding of Mosques. That'll go a long way in dealing with these Fascists.

This absolutely. It's opening the door for Islamism to come straight onto Western soil by softer, covert means. We allow wahhabi Saudi Arabia to fund mosques in Europe and then wonder why local Muslims are becoming radicalised.

Misogyny within a particular society or religion is a legitimate conversation, because misogyny mainfests itself differently and to different degrees in many cultures. I get tired of people derailing conversations about misogyny within Islam by saying "well there's misogyny in every culture!". Ok we understand that, it's not wrong, but it's a matter of degrees here. Western culture has legacies of misogyny but womens' rights have come on leaps and bounds within the last century, to the degree where it's now taboo to hold misogynist views here. That kind of development is only just starting to gain ground with many Islamic societies and there's still massive visceral backlash against it.

It's a matter of degrees. Yes we can show disapproval at Italy and other Southern European countries for frowning upon women for wearing skirts above the knee in churches. That doesn't suddenly mean we can't be appalled at Saudi Arabia and Iran's far more extreme policies of punishing unveiled women anywhere in public.

Misogyny doesn't manifest itself any differently anywhere in the world. Cook my dinner, stay at home, and know your place. That's what it's all about everywhere in the world. Or the good old argument of women being of less worth than men.

The outside symptoms may manifest itself differently, but the mindset is always the same. Paternalistic. And for some reason it's always to the South. Be it southern Europe, the Middle East, India or the South of the US.

It manifests to different degrees within different cultures. If you're talking about where is a relatively better place to be a woman in the 21st Century world, you can't compare Southern Europe and The Southern US to most Islamic countries (with a few exceptions). If you as a woman file for divorce or go out in a miniskirt in Italy, Malta or Spain, you might get called names and have some Hail Mary's said for you, but the shit's not illegal. I'm not defending that, it's wrong when it happens and as a Southern European, I'm here for conversations about misogyny within my own culture. I can hear that without having to derail it and say "but what about misogyny over there?!" which is what people are doing here when people want to talk about it exclusively within the context of Islam. Try wearing a miniskirt in Dubai though, I dare you.

But I see a conflict in ideas in what you're saying anyway. On one hand you look like you want to argue that Islam is no more exceptionally misogynist than any other culture and that misogyny exists everywhere, but then you single out regions where you say it's always more misogynist? I'm confused...

(May 8, 2016 at 6:04 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: But I see a conflict in ideas in what you're saying anyway. On one hand you look like you want to argue that Islam is no more exceptionally misogynist than any other culture and that misogyny exists everywhere, but then you single out regions where you say it's always more misogynist? I'm confused...

No, I'm arguing that it's culture, more than religion. Culture predates religion. We're talking about deeply paternalistic cultures that have been that way before montheism came along. And there's no big difference between certain districts in Jerusalem, where the spitting at girl childs not being moderate enough, the very South of Italy, certainly not the Northern region, Albania, Greece or the Middle East. It's all the same mindset. Older than the religion they use as a vehicle now.

Again, it's the largest part of the world, actually. Not only the usual suspects. We didn't cover Asia or Africa so far.

(May 8, 2016 at 6:10 pm)abaris Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 6:04 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: But I see a conflict in ideas in what you're saying anyway. On one hand you look like you want to argue that Islam is no more exceptionally misogynist than any other culture and that misogyny exists everywhere, but then you single out regions where you say it's always more misogynist? I'm confused...

No, I'm arguing that it's culture, more than religion. Culture predates religion. We're talking about deeply paternalistic cultures that have been that way before montheism came along. And there's no big difference between certain districts in Jerusalem, where the spitting at girl childs not being moderate enough, the very South of Italy, certainly not the Northern region, Albania, Greece or the Middle East. It's all the same mindset. Older than the religion they use as a vehicle now.

Again, it's the largest part of the world, actually. Not only the usual suspects. We didn't cover Asia or Africa so far.

I don't think saying a problem could be caused by culture more than religion is accurate because I don't think they're different things. 
 It would be like saying animals cause more problems than mammals.  Religion is a part of people's culture.

I'd say overall the mistreatment of women in Islamic culture is worse than other cultures but not in every Islamic country or by every Muslim.  Things like female genital mutilation, stoning women, wife beating, they can be prevalent in any poor country but just seem to be worse in Islamic areas.

It's definitely true to say that misogyny can be seen in any culture and predates modern religions, but then different cultures and religions have taken misogyny and institutionalised it to different degrees later on. While misogyny is a thing on it's own that can and does exist in every single culture, it's true, there are certain misogynistic practices that are culture-specific. Examples of this would be The Burka and female inheritance laws in certain Islamic schools, and also the sexual objectification of women in Western culture (which is the opposite extreme to the Burka, although somewhat linked).

But with religion, I think saying "misogyny was there before the religion so the religion didn't invent it" downplays how religion can co-opt misogynist elements from earlier cultures and continue to perpetuate and institutionalise them. All religions but especially the Abrahamic ones have done this, they are deeply misogynist in their attitudes to women, and societies which either have state religions or strong religious presence are often worse off for womens' rights. It does correlate. China and perhaps Russia are the only real examples that really go against that.