(June 12, 2016 at 9:56 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 9:49 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Why? and how is your opinion about another person more important than that person's opinion of himself?

What? I never said my opinion was more important than anyone else's. Where I'm from everyone was circumcised and circumcising their children, it was completely normal.

Your child is his own person, and is entitled to having his own opinions. When you are doing something to him without even giving him the chance of forming an opinion, you are essentially imposing your opinion on him without any respect for his opinions.

(June 12, 2016 at 10:02 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 9:44 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: I think now your using "slippery slope" on me, and to me it's not weird, leaving the foreskin on seems weird to me. If my child was born with anything abnormal and it could be removed with a simple procedure I would probably do it.

I don't believe Rob is committing a slippery slope fallacy in his argumentation; he is merely asking where YOU, personally would draw the line, which I think is a question relevant to the discussion.

I was just jabbing him, I tried to answer him in my second sentence.

(June 12, 2016 at 9:56 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 9:49 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Why? and how is your opinion about another person more important than that person's opinion of himself?

What? I never said my opinion was more important than anyone else's. Where I'm from everyone was circumcised and circumcising their children, it was completely normal.

Huh?

"And where I'm from my ancestors owned slaves and so did their children, it was completely normal." Yes, your words sound that ridicules.

Women were property in the past, let not do that again because it was normal.
Polio was normal in the past, lets not do that again.
Natural childbirths were normal and death by childbearing was normal, lets not go there again.


Your appeal to normalcy is not even good enough to be weak. Please stop.

Here's what's normal. Your uncut penis is normal, natural and until a few years ago in the human existence time spectrum the only kind of penis anyone had. I'm happy you're not unhappy with it but that does not give you any moral or ethical ground to decide what your child's penis should look like.

(June 12, 2016 at 9:56 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 9:49 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Why? and how is your opinion about another person more important than that person's opinion of himself?

What? I never said my opinion was more important than anyone else's. Where I'm from everyone was circumcised and circumcising their children, it was completely normal.

The "everyone does it" argument is ridiculous without a valid reason behind it. Not saying you're making this argument, but plenty of people do completely horrific things in the name of tradition and don't realize it.

Honestly though, all vaginas look different, and all penises look different too. I think people are creating a fantasy world where these things are actually noticeable on a large scale. There are enough uncircumcised guys in America (and then are increasing in number) that I'd estimate most women have encountered an uncircumcised penis at some point.

You know, the argument the kid will feel awkward is used even against gay adoption. Kids bully, they tried to bully me, but I fit in real nice, with my fists on a guy 3 years older than me. The funny part is that the guys dad had the nerve to ask my dad to pay the bully's missing teeth.

That argument is invalid as kids will bully not because of others being different, but because they have grown without proper education at home. But thats a topic for another time.

I am not circuncised, but if my kid needed it for health needs, then I would take that decision for him. Otherwise, it would be his decision.

I will have a daughter in 7 weeks. My concern is to get enough room in the flat to accomodate for her clothes and shoes, if she takes after her mother

(June 12, 2016 at 10:04 am)Aoi Magi Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 9:56 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: What? I never said my opinion was more important than anyone else's. Where I'm from everyone was circumcised and circumcising their children, it was completely normal.

Your child is his own person, and is entitled to having his own opinions. When you are doing something to him without even giving him the chance of forming an opinion, you are essentially imposing your opinion on him without any respect for his opinions.

Yes are you saying it's possible to raise a child without imposing your opinions on them? Children rely on their parents to make decisions for them and those decisions are informed by whatever the parent thinks is best. Some parents think it's best to circumcise and I think it's justified, some parents don't and I think it's justified.

(June 12, 2016 at 10:09 am)Heatheness Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 9:56 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: What? I never said my opinion was more important than anyone else's. Where I'm from everyone was circumcised and circumcising their children, it was completely normal.

Huh?

"And where I'm from my ancestors owned slaves and so did their children, it was completely normal." Yes, your words sound that ridicules.

Women were property in the past, let not do that again because it was normal.
Polio was normal in the past, lets not do that again.
Natural childbirths were normal and death by childbearing was normal, lets not go there again.


Your appeal to normalcy is not even good enough to be weak. Please stop.

Here's what's normal. Your uncut penis is normal, natural and until a few years ago in the human existence time spectrum the only kind of penis anyone had. I'm happy you're not unhappy with it but that does not give you any moral or ethical ground to decide what your child's penis should look like.

Ok now your just getting ridiculous, Circumcision is a perfectly normal common procedure stop pretending like I am coming out of left field with this, we are talking about removing a small piece of skin.

I have many more moral arguments to make, especially about what kind of messages you're sending to your kid by making that decision so they "fit in". But now I want to do some maths.

Let's be incredibly generous and say that by the time it's sharing its dick with other kids for some reason, 85% of other kids are cut.

You leave your kid intact. What is the probability they are the only kid in the group who is not cut?

If the group consists of N other kids, the probability they are all cut is (0.85)^N

5 other kids: 44%

10 other kids: 20%

15 other kids: 9%

These are some pretty narrow margins for cutting your kid. Especially since in reality the percentage will very likely have gone down, so the chances here will also go down.

It's even possible you'll end up with them in the minority. You're gambling, essentially.

(June 12, 2016 at 10:23 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 10:09 am)Heatheness Wrote: Huh?

"And where I'm from my ancestors owned slaves and so did their children, it was completely normal." Yes, your words sound that ridicules.

Women were property in the past, let not do that again because it was normal.
Polio was normal in the past, lets not do that again.
Natural childbirths were normal and death by childbearing was normal, lets not go there again.


Your appeal to normalcy is not even good enough to be weak. Please stop.

Here's what's normal. Your uncut penis is normal, natural and until a few years ago in the human existence time spectrum the only kind of penis anyone had. I'm happy you're not unhappy with it but that does not give you any moral or ethical ground to decide what your child's penis should look like.

Ok now your just getting ridiculous, Circumcision is a perfectly normal common procedure stop pretending like I am coming out of left field with this, we are talking about removing a small piece of skin.

Baptism is a perfectly normal common procedure so lets get your child and every child Baptized.

Your appeal to normalcy is still ignorant. Pretty much the same as the religious appeal to belief in gods because most people do. That you don't see that is telling.

(June 12, 2016 at 10:14 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 10:04 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Your child is his own person, and is entitled to having his own opinions. When you are doing something to him without even giving him the chance of forming an opinion, you are essentially imposing your opinion on him without any respect for his opinions.

Yes are you saying it's possible to raise a child without imposing your opinions on them? Children rely on their parents to make decisions for them and those decisions are informed by whatever the parent thinks is best. Some parents think it's best to circumcise and I think it's justified, some parents don't and I think it's justified.

A parent isn't a dictator but a guide. A parent is supposed to guide a child and help them form their own opinions and decisions, not impose the parent's will.

Those parents who circumcise their child because of actual needs like a medical condition are indeed justified in their choice. Those who do it as a personal preference are not justified.