(April 22, 2011 at 4:39 pm)ruhollah Wrote: but here is the most effective argument...

you are a descendant of your parents
your parents are a descendant of your grand-parents
your grand-parents are a descendant of their parents...
...

...
a certain species evolved from a certain species
those species evolved from bacteria
bacteria was derived from carbon and water
that carbon and water was derived from elements
these elements are derived from certain atoms/magnetic fields
those atoms were derived from certain quarks...
...big bang occurred to certain string vibrations
...

we keep going like this to infinity......

we believe that at infinity, you find the origin of everything that is created... and that origin is God

Reminds me of this CK Louis video

(April 22, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: I can deal with such problems independently without outside interference. Don't need an imaginary friend to fix my problems. I can do it all on my own.

I discussed the issues with relative morality. Some people like you are above average and know whats right and whats wrong. You may live a trouble-free and successful life. And your kids may adapt your way of thinking, and their kids do the same, ...and we keep going.

BUT some people need some sort of resource. Some people need to be told that raping is wrong. Some people need to be told that pedophilia is wrong. Some people need to be told that killing an innocent victim is wrong.

If you come up with a list of morals/guideline you are are more or less going to come up with something along the lines of one of the mainstream religions.

Quote:1. How do you know it goes on for infinity?
2. How do you know it was a god that kicked it all off?
Fixed!

1. That's what the belief is, God is infinite...
2. Method of infinite descent... we believe the limit converges to 1 God.

(April 22, 2011 at 5:44 pm)ruhollah Wrote: listen I don't want to get into technical grammatical issues

essentially I am saying

everything you see in nature was derived from something else,... if we keep moving back in time you will reach the origin of everything that is created and we believe this origin is God.

Here is a mathematical formula:

LIM (as x goes to - Infinity) Parent Entity(at time/space x) = GOD

you're not being picked apart for your gramatical issues, you're being picked apart because your argument is not a sound one.

in other fucking words you're chatting bullshit based on no real reasoning other than the conclusion you came to in your deluded little head.

also wtf is your little formula proving? it's just a random jumble of letters then = GOD at the end of it.

you base your beliefs on NO evidence and a book which was written by multiple MEN who all believed in a voice coming from one deluded MAN's head who we can't even prove existed.

Quote:BUT some people need some sort of resource. Some people need to be told that raping is wrong. Some people need to be told that pedophilia is wrong. Some people need to be told that killing an innocent victim is wrong.

So you're saying that some people just aren't smart enough to lead themselves? Not capable of making good strong decisions that are either beneficial or fair to you and others?
I don't need any religion to do good, live a fulfilled life or to know right from wrong. I guess, some are just too dumb to do so.

Quote:That's what the belief is, God is infinite..

The question remains, how do you know? Do you admit to not knowing and so merely assume it?

Quote:Method of infinite descent... we believe the limit converges to 1 God.

Can you prove that? Evidence maybe?
Why does it have to be a god? We don't have all the answers, so we admit to not knowing. This is the correct answer, we don't know.

(April 23, 2011 at 9:07 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: I would dispute your claim to "not being neck deep in debt" should the rest of the planet decide to go to 'alternative means of energy' your country would be beyond neck deep in debt inside a week. Be thankful 'the West is a bit on the lazy side of life'

Yeah maybe in the Arabic nations, cause they were living under tyranny and didn't invest in eduction/research.

As for my country, you should be thankful that 90% of all important technologies we use in our daily life was invented there.

Hell even woman's right was invented there.

And most of these inventions were developed after this religion was implemented in the country.

In fact many of the earlier western scientists would read journals written by scholars in the middle east. Newton (who by the way was very religious and believed in ONE god) got a lot of his ideas from Alhazen.

Empires rise and fall, right now we are living at a time where the western empire is in control. 500 years from now, who knows, people in the middle east will say the same thing.

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(April 23, 2011 at 9:33 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Wrong again...there is a huge dispute regarding your "precious prophet" the score currently is that he never existed....but then the jury is still out. Frankly IF he ever existed he would hang his head in shame for what you have done with his ideals to drag a bunch of backward nomads 'out of the desert' ...what you have is a religion that has sent you BACK to the 'Stone Age' and become the laughing stock of the planet...this is WHY your countrymen are protesting....so much potential that is locked up with your Ayatollahs, and Mullahs... so infuriatingly sad. You are no better off than when you had a Caliphate....

Supreme court in Washington DC has a statue of him in honor of the laws he implemented when Arabia was at the brink of self-destruction.

In Iraq, you can find the coffins of many of his descendants. His existence is not disputed like it is for other prophets.

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(April 23, 2011 at 9:32 am)Ace Otana Wrote: Why does it have to be a god? We don't have all the answers, so we admit to not knowing. This is the correct answer, we don't know.

hey how about we do this.......

You prove me that there is NO god whatsoever. That the fact that the universe is following the laws of physics to a tee is all just a coincidence. The fact that pi, e, golden ratio is constant throughout the universe is all just a coincidence.

So prove to me that there is NO god.

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(April 23, 2011 at 9:01 am)Napoleon666 Wrote: you're not being picked apart for your gramatical issues, you're being picked apart because your argument is not a sound one.

in other fucking words you're chatting bullshit based on no real reasoning other than the conclusion you came to in your deluded little head.

also wtf is your little formula proving? it's just a random jumble of letters then = GOD at the end of it.

you base your beliefs on NO evidence and a book which was written by multiple MEN who all believed in a voice coming from one deluded MAN's head who we can't even prove existed.

Go read a book on mathematics, then you'll learn what my formula is proving.

Better yet, why don't you prove to me that there is NO god.

(April 22, 2011 at 5:44 pm)ruhollah Wrote: listen I don't want to get into technical grammatical issues

essentially I am saying

everything you see in nature was derived from something else,... if we keep moving back in time you will reach the origin of everything that is created and we believe this origin is God.

My points were not technical grammatical issues, they were basic logical issues. Simply saying that "we believe this origin is God" is pleading for the question "Well, why God and not several gods or a multiverse or something else?" The answer you give to this question is a missing premise in your argument.

Quote:Well there isn't really much controversy on the existence of prophet Mohammad like there is for Jesus, Moses and other prophets.

Yeah but that's not what I said, is it? I said there is no more historical evidence for Mohammad than there is for the other two.

I'd be delighted to start a controversy over this.... but Hamid Karzai would probably call for more riots!

(April 23, 2011 at 7:16 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Well there isn't really much controversy on the existence of prophet Mohammad like there is for Jesus, Moses and other prophets.

Yeah but that's not what I said, is it? I said there is no more historical evidence for Mohammad than there is for the other two.

I'd be delighted to start a controversy over this.... but Hamid Karzai would probably call for more riots!

Min, as I mentioned it is not really a controversial issue.

In fact his grave is in Medina, Saudi Arabia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Masjid_al-Nabawi

The original quran is I believe stored in a British museum.

The grave of his descendants are all over the middle east because after his death much of his family members were exiled because they wouldn't pledge allegiance to the king ruling the Arabian peninsula.