Turkey in the EU? Hahahahaha.

This is why I'm happy we're leaving.

Remember, second rate power.

(July 16, 2016 at 7:48 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: I think whether Turkey should be part of EU depends whether EU is content to remain a limited domestic association of second rate powers, or whether the interests of its main participants lies in collectively establishing an geopolitical entity that could give Europe dominating influence in its near abroad and global influence on par with current or future superpower nation states.

That's misunderstanding the concept of the EU. Back in it's early days it was constructed as a community of values. By two former arch enemies. The purpose was to build something depending on common values and human rights.

The charta has further built on that idea. No country can hope to become a member if it still enforces capital punishment. Every country has to respect human rights. Only to mention a select few of the pillars. Flawed as it is, the EU still upholds these values. Turkey doesn't fit in because, apart from no longer enforcing capital punishment, it doesn't meet the standards.

That's fine.. But I think the EU needs to carefully consider whether idealism is sufficient to ensure long term integration of Europe, or does it need to offer to its members the benefits of being able to,act collectively as a great power to achieve that goal.

(July 16, 2016 at 7:50 am)Bella Morte Wrote: Turkey in the EU? Hahahahaha.

This is why I'm happy we're leaving.

I disagree on a fundamental level. Our leaving the EU will adversely affect this country in ways from which it will never recover, the effects we see now are just at the possibility of our leaving. An irreversible step backwards, I weep for the future.

(July 16, 2016 at 10:14 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: That's fine.. But I think the EU needs to carefully consider whether idealism is sufficient to ensure long term integration of Europe, or does it need to offer to its members the benefits of being able to,act collectively as a great power to achieve that goal.

It's not idealism. That's where you're mistaken again. The project was primarily designed to assure peaceful relations and trade to mutual benefit. After two wars being at each others throats.

The political integration, and I'm all for it, is impossible right now. First because of nationalisms - that's why I said, expansion happened too quickly during the last decade. Before the political parameters had been set inside the existing community. The more members, the more difficult it gets to get a unanimous vote. And secondly because of NATO being a competition. Some countries, and I'm thinking primarily about Eastern Europe, consider themselves more a member of NATO than of a to be united Europe.

Meanwhile Erdogan is rambling over the attempt being a gift from Allah. And whoever Allah is when he's at home, it turns out as expected. Erdogan moves to cleanse the army, and, according to reports, already gave a few thousand judges the boot. The vaccancies will most certainly be filled with puppets. Thousands have been arrested. I don't think, direct involvement is a requirement to be arrested today.

If it wasn't as cynical, I really wouldn't rule out AKP involvement in last nights events. Seems as if Erdogan finally reached the end of his personal rainbow.

(July 16, 2016 at 1:15 pm)abaris Wrote: Meanwhile Erdogan is rambling over the attempt being a gift from Allah. And whoever Allah is when he's at home, it turns out as expected. Erdogan moves to cleanse the army, and, according to reports, already gave a few thousand judges the boot. The vaccancies will most certainly be filled with puppets.

If it wasn't as cynical, I really wouldn't rule out AKP involvement in last nights events. Seems as if Erdogan finally reached the end of his personal rainbow.

Pretty sure a few generals and 29 colonels have already been removed from their posts. Probably a lot more to come.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-07-1...rom-posts/

Even the more serious media starts to speculate on the whole coup having been a charade to give Erdogan leverage. Based on Turkish dissidents and based on an analysis of the diletantic behavior of the troops.

It's not as remote and tinfoily a possibility as it may seem, since Erdogan already cracked down on the army some years ago. The higher ups already were his puppets.

While it is not impossible that erdogan manufacture this coup for an opportunity to crack down, I doubt it is actually what had happened.   I suspect it was a genuine coup attempt.  At the most the coup may not have been unexpected by erdogan and he cunningly plotted to exploit it before it had happened.  The reason why I don't think it was completely manufactured by erdogan is however much erdogan may have tried to shape the officer Corp since taking power, the streak of kamalism runs deep in the army, and the army sees itself as a elite institute toon with an interest of its own, that is a step above the civil society and whose interest supersedes the interest of any current government.  it seems unlikely a trick so blatantly against the interests of the army itself could have maintained its secrecy and not have been intentionally exposed by some element of the army to protect the interest of the army.

The dilettantism of the rebel troops could be the result of the fact that the coup plotters did not have the cooperation of key officers, and yet for some as yet unknown reason felt it necessary to act now rather than later.   As a result the planning was poor.

Erdogan's decision to effectively blockade the US air base in turkey seem to suggest that either he suspects the US had lent tacit support to the coup, and would harbor coup plotters and continue to ferment trouble for him, or he is intentionally causing a breach with the US because he sought a permanent breach with the west, and the US, consistent with the story line of the jihadists, is seen to be the most important proxy for the west in general.