(May 18, 2011 at 1:41 pm)Nimzo Wrote:

Quote:God created all things.

Yes, the text says this.

So we agree, he creates all things.

Quote:

Quote:God created evil.

No, text does not say this. If it had wanted to say this, it would say "God created their wickedness", but it says "God created the wicked".

So all things, apart from evil.

Quote:

Quote:God created sin.

No, the text does not say this.

But you just agreed he created all things.


Come on, he either created all things or not.

Evil and sin are not "things". Evil is a moral property of things; sin (in general) is a state of affairs that things can be in, or (in particular) an act which things can perform.

So this verse is only discussing physical things?

Is there any reason other than warping the context of the verse that you think this?

Quote:but Proverbs 16:4 says god created "all things" even evil.

The bible says lots of stupid shit. That's why it is best ignored.

(May 18, 2011 at 2:09 pm)Skipper Wrote: So this verse is only discussing physical things?

Is there any reason other than warping the context of the verse that you think this?

It just says "things". It doesn't say whether those "things" are physical or non-physical in the verse. In my previous post, I simply explained why "evil" and "sin" are not typically thought of as "things"*. I haven't said anything about the context of the verse (and neither have you) - I would hate to have to resort to "explaining away" by suggesting that the verses before and after Proverbs 16:4 might actually help you to understand what "things" refers to, let alone going to such desperate lengths as to discussing other translations and the Hebrew to find out more information about the verse.

*If you want to present a Biblical argument for the existence of a Platonic realm of moral properties and states of affairs, be my guest.

I believe that "evil" and "sin" are listed as nouns in the dictionary. But if you claim that sin isn't a thing, then it must not exist. Which I agree with, because you have to have a god before you can have sin.

(May 18, 2011 at 1:22 pm)Skipper Wrote:

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(May 18, 2011 at 12:22 pm)Kayenneh Wrote: Oh, I know the answer to this one.
God is perfect, he didn't create sin, man did, if man repents he's gonna go to heaven blah blah blah, free will, yada yada yada.

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I know that's the usual drivel they spit around, including most here, "man created sin" etc, but Proverbs 16:4 says god created "all things" even evil. But I came across this verse that I had never seen before so I thought I'd post it for a discussion also I really want to see how they try and explain it away (with claims of "out of context" no doubt)

This sums my feelings on the topic quite well:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
-Epicurus

Not to mention sadistic if he (and I agree that sin and evil counts to the "everything") created evil and sin. (Does anyone remember who said that God is the most obnoxious character in fictional literature?)

(May 18, 2011 at 2:57 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: I believe that "evil" and "sin" are listed as nouns in the dictionary. But if you claim that sin isn't a thing, then it must not exist. Which I agree with, because you have to have a god before you can have sin.

"God" is also a noun, and so, by your logic, a "thing". Does that mean that Proverbs 16:4 says that God created Himself?

How about "televisions" - they're nouns and things! Does the verse mean that God created televisions?

How about "nothing" - that's a noun! Did God create nothing?

Etc. Etc.

(May 18, 2011 at 5:43 pm)Nimzo Wrote: "God" is also a noun, and so, by your logic, a "thing". Does that mean that Proverbs 16:4 says that God created Himself?

How about "televisions" - they're nouns and things! Does the verse mean that God created televisions?

How about "nothing" - that's a noun! Did God create nothing?

Either God did create evil, he saw evil as a consequence of his creation and did nothing about it, or his 'perfect' creations were deeply flawed. Anyway you look at it God doesn't come out looking like God. Your God may have not created televisions but since, according to you, he created everything, then he created the laws and capacity for televisions to exist. You can try to spin it any way you want but God is responsible for evil.

(May 18, 2011 at 6:11 pm)FaithNoMore Wrote: Either God did create evil, he saw evil as a consequence of his creation and did nothing about it, or his 'perfect' creations were deeply flawed.

False trichotomy.