This is my favorite proverb:

"The church is near,
but the road is icy.
The tavern is far,
but I will walk carefully."

-- Russian proverb


(Beats that bible shit all to hell.)

A very true one too, min. "Nothing seems to stop people from their search for truth better than a warm lap or stiff drink" - Anonymous
is another one of my favorites.

(May 19, 2011 at 4:01 pm)Nimzo Wrote:

(May 19, 2011 at 3:31 pm)FaithNoMore Wrote: If A created everything and B exists, then A created B.

Firstly, that is not a Law of Logic, but a syllogism. Secondly, it is a non-sequitur because you are equivocating "things" and "things that exist". The text (at least our ye olde King James Version) does not say God created all things that exist. It says God created "all things". Since evil is not a "thing", but a moral property, you will need to search a bit harder for your elusive Law of Logic.

If God created all things, all things are ultimately attributable to God. God created a "thing" with a choice. The choice to do evil, a moral property as you put it, is God given. Evil would not exist if God had not created "things" with choices (i.e. free will). Your God is responsible for evil, as it is a consequence of His creation.

If God is all-knowing, we were no experiment. God has no need for experiments. God deliberately created a "flawed" being and all the evil that goes with it.

There is no escaping this. You worship a God that set the conditions for failure. Very strange.

I worship a God that did create everything (including evil). He setup condition for success or failure, the alternative would be to set up no conditions or choice. I suppose He could have created beings that can't choose anything, but what would be the point of that?

(May 20, 2011 at 5:06 am)tackattack Wrote: He could have created beings that can't choose anything, but what would be the point of that?

Atheist heaven!

(May 18, 2011 at 11:15 am)Skipper Wrote: Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.


God created all things. God created me. God created evil. God created sin. God created me knowing I (and everyone) would sin. Then God sends me to hell. Fair?

I would like to hear the Christian opinion of, when looking at this verse, how me (or anyone) going to hell would be justified.

I thought about replying this. You know, if my answer is satisfactory enough, I might receive a kudos :)
First off, I'll bring a better translation of this verse:

Quote:The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. (NASB)

Reason: the word used in hebrew can mean "for His purpose/sake", "for its purpose/sake" (there is no word "it" to distinguish the objects from persons, as english is perhaps the only language that has that). Anyway, it seems that KJV translated "for His purpose/sake" as "for Himself", but the problem is that there is already a hebrew word that means "for him/himself" , while the word used in Proverbs 16.4 suggests intent, purpose.

ok, other important things:
- in the Old Testament (i.e. the Jewish Bible) you can hardly find any verse to suggest hell. As far as I know, Jews don't believe in hell, and it is very possible that most to all before 0 A.D. did not imagine a hell either. So the "day of evil" it's almost impossible to mean "hell".
- The verse says that God made a purpose for everything, even for the wicked man.
- The "predestination" seems to be foreign to the Old Testament too (as far as I remember, there is no verse to clearly suggest/specify predestination in the Old Testament, i.e. the Jewish Bible).
- It's odd to understand that God created a man as inherently "evil", i.e. made evil without him the possibility to change how he is. Besides the fact that such view would contradict Ecclesiastes 7:29 & Genesis 1.31. And also consider that "wicked" does not mean "a man who does not believe in God".

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(May 20, 2011 at 5:06 am)tackattack Wrote: I worship a God that did create everything (including evil). He setup condition for success or failure, the alternative would be to set up no conditions or choice. I suppose He could have created beings that can't choose anything, but what would be the point of that?

Just to add a note about that. At the end of the creation (Gen 1.31) God says that what he made was "good", so it is quite odd to believe that God creates somebody as "evil", forcing him to be evil (I don't know if you meant that or not). As about the popular conception of God as an "extremely, insanely good person that would never do evil to somebody, not even to an evil man" I believe it rather comes from the people's desire for a God like that: irresponsible and ignorant in order to agree with & like how they are - irresponsible and ignorant, a God that forgives everybody and allows everything because He cannot react by reason, but only forced by His "good" nature (i.e. strong feelings that He cannot resist). I believe that belief in such a God is truly childish, like creating a "Santa Claus" to worship. (and yes, the popular conception about "God" is a "Santa Claus, that lives more than during Christmas")

Again I don't believe in "God's nature", i.e. God forced by His nature, or God falling to His feelings, unable to react by reason. And I don't believe in a "good" God to mean an "extremely good person, even to insanity and stupidity" - and you must admit that if a man is "good" in the meaning of doing nothing when people mock him and hurt him and harm him, and after all these acting as nothing happened is more "stupid" than "good". So how would be God not to take these into consideration, perhaps because of an "extremely, insanely good" nature? I guess people tend to twist too many words to the absolute.

(May 20, 2011 at 7:47 am)Zenith Wrote:

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Just to add a note about that. At the end of the creation (Gen 1.31) God says that what he made was "good", so it is quite odd to believe that God creates somebody as "evil", forcing him to be evil (I don't know if you meant that or not). As about the popular conception of God as an "extremely, insanely good person that would never do evil to somebody, not even to an evil man" I believe it rather comes from the people's desire for a God like that: irresponsible and ignorant in order to agree with & like how they are - irresponsible and ignorant, a God that forgives everybody and allows everything because He cannot react by reason, but only forced by His "good" nature (i.e. strong feelings that He cannot resist). I believe that belief in such a God is truly childish, like creating a "Santa Claus" to worship. (and yes, the popular conception about "God" is a "Santa Claus, that lives more than during Christmas")

Again I don't believe in "God's nature", i.e. God forced by His nature, or God falling to His feelings, unable to react by reason. And I don't believe in a "good" God to mean an "extremely good person, even to insanity and stupidity" - and you must admit that if a man is "good" in the meaning of doing nothing when people mock him and hurt him and harm him, and after all these acting as nothing happened is more "stupid" than "good". So how would be God not to take these into consideration, perhaps because of an "extremely, insanely good" nature? I guess people tend to twist too many words to the absolute.

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I agree with the verse. I did not state at any time that God created people evil, merely that he created people andb evil. He created us for the propensity for evil, knowing we would opt for options, and I can only hope that in the long run he sees it being a betterment on the overall of creation.
God is not all loving as he does hate, and they are opposites in the common concepts. He does however love people regardless of the lives they choose. As a Christian I'm not farmiliar with God being a Santa Claus being a common concept, perhaps it is in your regional experience, but not in mine. I'm not sure of your exact question in the next to last sentence. Perhaps you could restate and clarify for me. Thanks!

(May 19, 2011 at 4:01 pm)Nimzo Wrote:

(May 19, 2011 at 3:31 pm)FaithNoMore Wrote: If A created everything and B exists, then A created B.

Firstly, that is not a Law of Logic, but a syllogism. Secondly, it is a non-sequitur because you are equivocating "things" and "things that exist". The text (at least our ye olde King James Version) does not say God created all things that exist. It says God created "all things". Since evil is not a "thing", but a moral property, you will need to search a bit harder for your elusive Law of Logic.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said it was a law of logic but simply logic, maybe basic reasoning would have been a better way to say it. Either way, you can address it or keep dancing around the true subject at hand.

As for God creating "all things," things that exist is a subset of "all things," therefore God created everything that exists.

Nimzo Wrote:It is rationality that is the issue, not clarity.

I agree. Your ability to rationalize is definitely lacking.

Nimzo Wrote:I was providing a counterexample to your assertion that "if God created everything, and something exists, then he is either directly or indirectly responsible for it". I am applying your asserted principle to the case of God's existence, which I am quite free to do to show its absurdity.

But if God exists and he did not create himself, then God did not truly create all things. Your example fails to meet the standards set by the text of God creating all things.

(May 19, 2011 at 7:00 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Why do you assume that just because you don't understand why God does something a certain way it automatically makes it unjust, or proves he is not real? I don't see the logic in that at all my friend.

I'm sorry if my feeble mind can't wrap my mind around a god who supposedly loves man yet places him in such an impossible position. God: "I demand you love me and believe in my son or face the fire." This is spiritual blackmail.

Or ...

God: "I created man, and it was good. Now, I'm going to put you in the garden where the devil will inevitably tempt you. I will allow the devil into my wonderful garden so you can prove your obedience to me. Unfortunately, you will fail. I knew you would fail beforehand, but I chose to create you anyway. Even though I have cursed you and every other human that will come after you, I love you and Eve. But take heart, I'm sending my son to die a horrible death for you. That makes it better, right? In retrospect, I guess I could have prevented the whole ugly scenario in the first place, but I, in all my lucidity, chose to begin the slow death march of humanity. Some of you, I admit, will think on these things and probably reject me. Oh well. Sorry about that. I'm all-powerful and all-loving, but there's nothing I can do there. My omniscient hands are tied. But I do love you. You know that, right?"

What am I not understanding? What other reasons could God possibly have for knowingly placing us in this spiritual gauntlet? Pronouncements saying that God has his reasons or that God's ways are not our ways, makes "God's ways" very peculiar and cruel indeed. In any case, such pronouncements get God off the hook far too easily.

I don't say all this absolutely proves he is not real, just that it makes it highly unlikely. Or, at the least, makes this god, like all others, unworthy of worship.

Quote:God: "I demand you love me and believe in my son or face the fire." This is spiritual blackmail.

Indeed. It's like pointing a gun at your kids and saying "love me or I'll shoot!".
Where's the good and love in that? My little cousins absolutely love being around me, it's because I'm always kind, caring and loving. I'm doing a better job than your god here! And I'm supposed to be inferior.


Fuck god.