(September 24, 2016 at 4:21 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote:

(September 24, 2016 at 3:38 pm)Lek Wrote: I, like most christians and non-christians, have long had a problem to one degree or another with the seemingly wrathful God of the old testament.  I've always come to the conclusion of God being a God of justice as well as of love.  Because of the sins of mankind, our lives here on this imperfect world involve suffering.  It's a consequence that stems from our sins.  Even innocent children often suffer consequences of the sins of others because they live in the resulting world.

No loving almighty "God" would ever allow that. You just can't justify that.

I'm discussing the issue from a biblical standpoint, which we often do in this forum, and I think what I expounded on was a pretty good justification, although I really don't need to justify God's actions. Coming from a believer's standpoint it makes sense. I understand that no matter what I say, God isn't going to be what you want or accept.

Quote:Even innocent children often suffer consequences of the sins of others because they live in the resulting world.

I rather think that this undermines the whole 'God of justice' notion. A God who would allow the innocent to 'suffer [the] consequences of the sins of others' is anything but just. Sort of the theological version of : 'Why were you arrested?' 'For being black and nearby.'

Boru

(September 24, 2016 at 6:47 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:Even innocent children often suffer consequences of the sins of others because they live in the resulting world.

I rather think that this undermines the whole 'God of justice' notion.  A God who would allow the innocent to 'suffer [the] consequences of the sins of others' is anything but just.  Sort of the theological version of : 'Why were you arrested?'  'For being black and nearby.'

Boru

Good point. God may actually want us to suffer. Suffering can create good results and can form us into better and stronger persons. The bible actually refers to greater rewards in heaven for some than for others, which could be compensation. In the end though, I can't totally understand the reason God allows suffering among little children. The apostle Paul, though, was of the opinion that the suffering that any one of us goes through here is not even worth consideration compared to the greatness of what God has in store for for us in eternity.

(September 24, 2016 at 6:57 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 24, 2016 at 6:47 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I rather think that this undermines the whole 'God of justice' notion.  A God who would allow the innocent to 'suffer [the] consequences of the sins of others' is anything but just.  Sort of the theological version of : 'Why were you arrested?'  'For being black and nearby.'

Boru

Good point.  God may actually want us to suffer.  Suffering can create good results and can form us into better and stronger persons.  The bible actually refers to greater rewards in heaven for some than for others, which could be  compensation.  In the end though, I can't totally understand the reason God allows suffering among little children.  The apostle Paul, though, was of the opinion that the suffering that any one of us goes through here is not even worth consideration compared to the greatness of what God has in store for for us in eternity.

You struggle with these contradictions. I do not. There is no mystery involved. God does not exist and creatures suffer and die. Most get eaten by other creatures. People are a type of chimpanzee and we are damned lucky to be typing on to keyboards instead of fighting off leopards.

(September 24, 2016 at 6:57 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 24, 2016 at 6:47 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I rather think that this undermines the whole 'God of justice' notion.  A God who would allow the innocent to 'suffer [the] consequences of the sins of others' is anything but just.  Sort of the theological version of : 'Why were you arrested?'  'For being black and nearby.'

Boru

Good point.  God may actually want us to suffer.  Suffering can create good results and can form us into better and stronger persons.  The bible actually refers to greater rewards in heaven for some than for others, which could be  compensation.  In the end though, I can't totally understand the reason God allows suffering among little children.  The apostle Paul, though, was of the opinion that the suffering that any one of us goes through here is not even worth consideration compared to the greatness of what God has in store for for us in eternity.

Something I posted in another thread that speaks to this.


The theory I'm working from is more fundamental than that of the mind. It is that of living being, of the objective body required for a mind to locate within and ride upon and the mind's most fundamental function as awareness of self existence. No intent required.

The only "intent" I require for a the eternal production of a deterministic metaverse, from an objectively infinite God that materially takes up all available space forever in all directions, Is a single expression of it's self. All it has to do it express it's own "Name", it own subject relationships it has with it's own matter...it relativistic nature. And this yields a specific geometry.

I even think this was a "spontaneous symmetry breaking event" a "quantum fluctuation". A self observation/realization and spontaneous expression of inherent order. No intent required.

The result is a planar traveling wave front that leaves infinite identical spherical universes in it wake, infinite "ones" at every quantum instant or unit of Plank time. The metaversal wave front will never stop because it is a self expression of the thing it is traveling through, expressed and received by it's Self with nothing to impede it.

In this model, the beginning of the metaverse is not necessarily the beginning of our individual universe. There would be no way to tell how many planes exist above or below us although what is below us would be fininte and increasing by one plane every instant. The planes above us may not be a finite amount either (without spatial beginning), if I intuit correctly that this is a self expressive embryonic process of an original infinite Individual (The One), individuating to reproduce other self sustaining individuals...and here we are.

So the total picture of this model's metaverse "without beginning" is as an extremely thick vertical stack of planes of universes that extend infinitely along the horizontal axis/plane, and this is traveling as a a downward iterational wavefront. New universes are formed at the bottom of the stack while completed/matured/fully developed universes are "born" off the top of the deterministic stack to exist as a free willed agent in the mass field of the original infinite substance.

Universes in the metaverse would be developing gods, souls dreaming of lives in material bodies on planets. Universes that have been completed are Gods, birthed as an autonomous individual into the infinite field of the original GOD, eternal life and a crown of glory, co-inheritor with Christ. From this view, GOD simply expressed it's own existence and the happy result is children and eternal company/co-creation/experience. We get to play as Gods together with GOD with no limit.

We were born in a Great Contraction, not a big bang. Though GOD is mentally Paternal, preserving and projecting pattern, GOD is also physically Maternal, holding all the infinite universes like children in infinite wombs within her infinite body, nurturing them unfailingly into perfection. This is the faith of GOD.

(September 24, 2016 at 7:20 pm)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 24, 2016 at 6:57 pm)Lek Wrote: Good point.  God may actually want us to suffer.  Suffering can create good results and can form us into better and stronger persons.  The bible actually refers to greater rewards in heaven for some than for others, which could be  compensation.  In the end though, I can't totally understand the reason God allows suffering among little children.  The apostle Paul, though, was of the opinion that the suffering that any one of us goes through here is not even worth consideration compared to the greatness of what God has in store for for us in eternity.

Something I posted in another thread that speaks to this.


The theory I'm working from is more fundamental than that of the mind. It is that of living being, of the objective body required for a mind to locate within and ride upon and the mind's most fundamental function as awareness of self existence. No intent required.

The only "intent" I require for a the eternal production of a deterministic metaverse, from an objectively infinite God that materially takes up all available space forever in all directions, Is a single expression of it's self. All it has to do it express it's own "Name", it own subject relationships it has with it's own matter...it relativistic nature. And this yields a specific geometry.

I even think this was a "spontaneous symmetry breaking event" a "quantum fluctuation". A self observation/realization and spontaneous expression of inherent order. No intent required.

The result is a planar traveling wave front that leaves infinite identical spherical universes in it wake, infinite "ones" at every quantum instant or unit of Plank time. The metaversal wave front will never stop because it is a self expression of the thing it is traveling through, expressed and received by it's Self with nothing to impede it.

In this model, the beginning of the metaverse is not necessarily the beginning of our individual universe. There would be no way to tell how many planes exist above or below us although what is below us would be fininte and increasing by one plane every instant. The planes above us may not be a finite amount either (without spatial beginning), if I intuit correctly that this is a self expressive embryonic process of an original infinite Individual (The One), individuating to reproduce other self sustaining individuals...and here we are.

So the total picture of this model's metaverse "without beginning" is as an extremely thick vertical stack of planes of universes that extend infinitely along the horizontal axis/plane, and this is traveling as a a downward iterational wavefront. New universes are formed at the bottom of the stack while completed/matured/fully developed universes are "born" off the top of the deterministic stack to exist as a free willed agent in the mass field of the original infinite substance.

Universes in the metaverse would be developing gods, souls dreaming of lives in material bodies on planets. Universes that have been completed are Gods, birthed as an autonomous individual into the infinite field of the original GOD, eternal life and a crown of glory, co-inheritor with Christ. From this view, GOD simply expressed it's own existence and the happy result is children and eternal company/co-creation/experience. We get to play as Gods together with GOD with no limit.

We were born in a Great Contraction, not a big bang. Though GOD is mentally Paternal, preserving and projecting pattern, GOD is also physically Maternal, holding all the infinite universes like children in infinite wombs within her infinite body, nurturing them unfailingly into perfection. This is the faith of GOD.

If you interject your woo woo theories into every single post that has the words god, mind, or universe I guess we can consider you a troll?

(September 24, 2016 at 7:45 pm)chimp3 Wrote: If you interject your woo woo theories into every single post that has the words god, mind, or universe I guess we can consider you a troll?

I believe in the free market of ideas and every single idea we have in our use was thought up by some one before us.
So excuse me If I don't think the creation of new better ideas with more explanatory power is a finished process.

If the creation of the universe was not a result of "Intelligent Design" direct intent, but a reaction of the body of GOD to the self expression of GOD, then the process is biological and this is the reason GOD does not intervene. Because it's unnecessary.

Am I "trolling" in the proposition that all self aware souls in the universe and all the infinite universes are the results of the loving making of an androgynous GOD with itself?

(September 24, 2016 at 7:20 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: The theory I'm working from is more fundamental than that of the mind. It is that of living being, of the objective body required for a mind to locate within and ride upon and the mind's most fundamental function as awareness of self existence. No intent required.

The only "intent" I require for a the eternal production of a deterministic metaverse, from an objectively infinite God that materially takes up all available space forever in all directions, Is a single expression of it's self. All it has to do it express it's own "Name", it own subject relationships it has with it's own matter...it relativistic nature. And this yields a specific geometry.

I even think this was a "spontaneous symmetry breaking event" a "quantum fluctuation". A self observation/realization and spontaneous expression of inherent order. No intent required.

The result is a planar traveling wave front that leaves infinite identical spherical universes in it wake, infinite "ones" at every quantum instant or unit of Plank time. The metaversal wave front will never stop because it is a self expression of the thing it is traveling through, expressed and received by it's Self with nothing to impede it.

In this model, the beginning of the metaverse is not necessarily the beginning of our individual universe. There would be no way to tell how many planes exist above or below us although what is below us would be fininte and increasing by one plane every instant. The planes above us may not be a finite amount either (without spatial beginning), if I intuit correctly that this is a self expressive embryonic process of an original infinite Individual (The One), individuating to reproduce other self sustaining individuals...and here we are.

So the total picture of this model's metaverse "without beginning" is as an extremely thick vertical stack of planes of universes that extend infinitely along the horizontal axis/plane, and this is traveling as a a downward iterational wavefront. New universes are formed at the bottom of the stack while completed/matured/fully developed universes are "born" off the top of the deterministic stack to exist as a free willed agent in the mass field of the original infinite substance.

Universes in the metaverse would be developing gods, souls dreaming of lives in material bodies on planets. Universes that have been completed are Gods, birthed as an autonomous individual into the infinite field of the original GOD, eternal life and a crown of glory, co-inheritor with Christ. From this view, GOD simply expressed it's own existence and the happy result is children and eternal company/co-creation/experience. We get to play as Gods together with GOD with no limit.

We were born in a Great Contraction, not a big bang. Though GOD is mentally Paternal, preserving and projecting pattern, GOD is also physically Maternal, holding all the infinite universes like children in infinite wombs within her infinite body, nurturing them unfailingly into perfection. This is the faith of GOD.

Why do you believe this?  Is God speaking this to you?  Is this something that any one of us should be able to know?  If God does not intervene how have you come across this knowledge?

(September 24, 2016 at 7:55 pm)Lek Wrote: Why do you believe this?  Is God speaking this to you?  Is this something that any one of us should be able to know?

It's highly plausible to me based on it's comprehensive and accurate predictive power of universal order with a minimal amount of complexity. It's actually extremely simple and completely deterministic (up until universal maturation).

Glad you asked! No, no one is speaking to me; neither GOD nor God nor a god, nor angel/voice/person/book/culture etc. I've hammered this logistic out on my own for almost 2 decades consciously. It has already gone through a number of revisions/iterations and will continue to until it holds water. This is an objective "revelation" that anybody and everybody should be able to "grok" and follow the logic of to see the structures it predicts both within us and all around us. I have found the larger shaping membranes and spaces between in the larger universe to be self similar to the organization of psychic anatomy and operation. If you want me to show/explain you the objective holographic image (represented as best I can) and how it predicts the internal organization of the psyche I'd be happy to show you, but you would yet know how I arrived at that map. You can pick any place you'd like to start.

As I have currently mapped, the holographic unit of a single universe is a spherical shell with a series of internally nested membranes and shapes that are extremely simple but as a composite vibrational container, the complexity of wave interaction gets very complex extremely quickly. For instance, take a common cylindrical 55 gallon drum full of water and vibrate the drum. What shape would the standing waves in the water take? Circular. Easy to predict/intuit. What if you put a square 5 galloon bucket full of water up to the level of the water in the drum and vibrated the drum....what shape would the water inside the internal square bucket take? Hard to say right? If you're very good with mental imaging, you could probably follow the circular wave with you mind in slow mo as it contracted on the corners of the internal square and collapsed upon the sides to rebound internally, but you'd probably have more success drawing it. What about the wave pattern if you put a triangular pot inside the square bucket, inside the round drum? *throws pencil and paper in air.* But a computer could do it with ease.

(September 24, 2016 at 8:22 pm)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 24, 2016 at 7:55 pm)Lek Wrote: Why do you believe this?  Is God speaking this to you?  Is this something that any one of us should be able to know?

It's highly plausible to me based on it's comprehensive and accurate predictive power of universal order with a minimal amount of complexity. It's actually extremely simple and completely deterministic (up until universal maturation).

Glad you asked! No, no one is speaking to me; neither GOD nor God nor a god, nor angel/voice/person/book/culture etc.  I've hammered this logistic out on my own for almost 2 decades consciously. It has already gone through a number of revisions/iterations and will continue to until it holds water. This is an objective "revelation" that anybody and everybody should be able to "grok" and follow the logic of to see the structures it predicts both within us and all around us. I have found the larger shaping membranes and spaces between in the larger universe to be self similar to the organization of psychic anatomy and operation. If you want me to show/explain you the objective holographic image (represented as best I can) and how it predicts the internal organization of the psyche I'd be happy to show you, but you would yet know how I arrived at that map. You can pick any place you'd like to start.

As I have currently mapped, the holographic unit of a single universe is a spherical shell with a series of internally nested membranes and shapes that are extremely simple but as a composite vibrational container, the complexity of wave interaction gets very complex extremely quickly. For instance, take a common cylindrical 55 gallon drum full of water and vibrate the drum. What shape would the standing waves in the water take? Circular. Easy to predict/intuit. What if you put a square 5 galloon bucket full of water up to the level of the water in the drum and vibrated the drum....what shape would the water inside the internal square bucket take? Hard to say right? If you're very good with mental imaging, you could probably follow the circular wave with you mind in slow mo as it contracted on the corners of the internal square and collapsed upon the sides to rebound internally, but you'd probably have more success drawing it.  What about the wave pattern if you put a triangular pot inside the square bucket, inside the round drum? *throws pencil and paper in air.* But a computer could do it with ease.

When you wish upon a star
Doesn't matter who you are
When you wish upon a star
Your dreams come true! - JC