This has thread has ended up producing some interesting thoughts, for me at least.

I want to come back to the idea of assuming some sort of higher power is in charge and ultimately knows what it is doing. I don't believe this is true obviously, but my problem with it goes much deeper. This is a really dangerous idea. It's irresponsible. If you're wrong, the implications are terrible. Even if you're right, you're putting complete faith in the fact that this power isn't actually an evil bastard of some sort and needs standing up to.

If I start refusing to act, or refusing to make decisions properly because I'm relying on a higher power, I'm not living life properly. I'm putting myself and others in potential danger. As an extreme case, "Shall I stop that rape over there? No, it's okay. Being X is allowing it, so it's okay. I don't want to interefere with its greater plan."

Even worse, "Shall I rape someone? Well, if I manage to do it, obviously being X is okay with it." Why take responsibility for any decisions? If what will be will be, and is all part of the plan, why think at all?

Of course, even the people who profess to believe in such principles act like they are not true, most of the time. They will indeed step in to do the right thing. They will take responsibility for difficult decisions. I find these contradictions very interesting, In fact. It's the times that they don't, and compromise their judgement for religious reasons, that the harm is caused.

(September 29, 2016 at 4:35 am)robvalue Wrote: This has thread has ended up producing some interesting thoughts, for me at least.

I want to come back to the idea of assuming some sort of higher power is in charge and ultimately knows what it is doing. I don't believe this is true obviously, but my problem with it goes much deeper. This is a really dangerous idea. It's irresponsible. If you're wrong, the implications are terrible. Even if you're right, you're putting complete faith in the fact that this power isn't actually an evil bastard of some sort and needs standing up to.

If I start refusing to act, or refusing to make decisions properly because I'm relying on a higher power, I'm not living life properly. I'm putting myself and others in potential danger. As an extreme case, "Shall I stop that rape over there? No, it's okay. Being X is allowing it, so it's okay. I don't want to interefere with its greater plan."

Even worse, "Shall I rape someone? Well, if I manage to do it, obviously being X is okay with it."

Of course, even the people who profess to believe in such principles act like they are not true, most of the time. They will indeed step in to do the right thing. They will take responsibility for difficult decisions. It's the times that they don't, and compromise their judgement for religious reasons, that the harm is caused.

I started a thread earlier based on my claim that I am morally superior to god. If I saw a young child being raped and murdered I would do everything in my human power to stop that from happening. God does nothing. No loving god is present. It is up to us to bring justice and mercy into this world.

Yup, I totally agree. It's really sad hearing people making excuses for such behaviour. Why is God being held to a lower standard than us?

He even invented rape, and the possibility of rape. It doesn't get much more damning than that. If I was designing an environment for some self-aware beings to inhabit, I think I'd leave it out.

(September 29, 2016 at 5:55 am)robvalue Wrote: Yup, I totally agree. It's really sad hearing people making excuses for such behaviour. Why is God being held to a lower standard than us?

He even invented rape, and the possibility of rape. It doesn't get much more damning than that. If I was designing an environment for some self-aware beings to inhabit, I think I'd leave it out.

Right. Rape is not a good art project for any designer. I look to Jane Goodall"s proposition that we are bi-polar apes who share chimp aggression and bonobo sexuality in order to understand the cause of rape vs. some theists excuses for gods tolerance for the crime.

While I'm at it, let me post this old chestnut. How loving is this guy, really?

Oh he can do what he wants, and anything he does is automatically good? Oh right. I think you just highlighted the problem with dictatorships.

https://youtu.be/wKtuk0ZpnbY

(September 29, 2016 at 4:35 am)robvalue Wrote: I want to come back to the idea of assuming some sort of higher power is in charge and ultimately knows what it is doing. I don't believe this is true obviously, but my problem with it goes much deeper. This is a really dangerous idea. It's irresponsible. If you're wrong, the implications are terrible. Even if you're right, you're putting complete faith in the fact that this power isn't actually an evil bastard of some sort and needs standing up to.

That's a real general statement that doesn't refute the benefit following God. We all put our faith in things or people that we deem to be worthy of that faith. Most of us put our faith in doctors, teachers, scientists, etc. If we discover that these individuals or institutions are unworthy of our faith and trust than we usually abandon them. I would never suggest that we should follow a god that is evil, unloving, etc.

Quote:If I start refusing to act, or refusing to make decisions properly because I'm relying on a higher power, I'm not living life properly. I'm putting myself and others in potential danger. As an extreme case, "Shall I stop that rape over there? No, it's okay. Being X is allowing it, so it's okay. I don't want to interefere with its greater plan."

Relying on a higher power doesn't consist of waking up every day and stopping, consulting God and waiting for answer before we act, as if anyone really does that. At least represent theists realistically, if you're going to form conclusions about us. I make my daily decisions based on the morality I have formed through my experience with God and his presence in me at all times.

Quote:Even worse, "Shall I rape someone? Well, if I manage to do it, obviously being X is okay with it." Why take responsibility for any decisions? If what will be will be, and is all part of the plan, why think at all?

That's a really silly statement you're making here. While arguing that theists should come to reality, you need to consider reality yourself. What theist comes upon a woman, gets an urge to rape her, then checks with God to see if it's OK to do so at this time? We act based upon the accumulation of what kind of people we have become through our relationship with God and the morality this has formed in us. We make the same decisions everyone else makes. We are accountable for every decision we make, not only to other people and authorities, but ultimately to God.

Quote:Of course, even the people who profess to believe in such principles act like they are not true, most of the time. They will indeed step in to do the right thing. They will take responsibility for difficult decisions. I find these contradictions very interesting, In fact. It's the times that they don't, and compromise their judgement for religious reasons, that the harm is caused.

You're verifying what I said above. Of course, I'll step in and do the right thing, but that is not acting like God is not real. Let's talk reality here, not some vision you have about a theist stopping and considering all angles before jumping in to save a person is distress. A common false argument that atheists make about theists is that they don't think or reason. If you tell them to look at the social, medical and scientific accomplishments of theists, say in the western world, they'll say something ridiculous like "they ignored or went against their theist beliefs."

I don't even know how to address most of that but...

How do you determine whether God is good or evil, if you're using God as your standard? If God says "go ahead and rape", then rape is good? Or do you have your own morality already, and God is good if he confirms it?

I still don't know how I would go about putting my faith in a higher power. I have literally no idea. I don't know what I would be trusting to them, and what difference it would be supposed to make.

(September 29, 2016 at 4:35 am)robvalue Wrote: Even worse, "Shall I rape someone? Well, if I manage to do it, obviously being X is okay with it." Why take responsibility for any decisions? If what will be will be, and is all part of the plan, why think at all?

Ghengis Khan used to use similar logic. He'd say. "These people must have done something wrong! as I am here"

There's so many problems with "religious morality" it's hard to know where to start.

What it really comes down to, in reality, is "I'll do what god says as long as I was going to do it anyway". Or more precisely, you'll do what god says because it's you, talking to yourself. God always agrees with you. Funny that, isn't it?

The other problem is that atheists seem to figure out morality just fine without needing any access to god. So what use is he?

(September 28, 2016 at 5:24 am)chimp3 Wrote: OK. So may be an ocean is a bad analogy since an ocean is not infinite and solid. OK. So, now we are comparing a loving god to either magma or limitless light? I do not see the similarity? If homogeneous what do the 10 veils consist of ?

To primitive man, the ocean appears infinite.
Have you ever been head over heels in young love? Did you feel like there was anything in the world that could stop you?

The 10 veils are different: 2 are solid objects, 1 is a field, 1 is a massless 2 spin membrane, another is a vertical electromagnetic field and 4 are horizontal toroidal EM fields like tokamaks