(September 28, 2016 at 8:14 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(September 27, 2016 at 11:51 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: An ocean of pure matter, not molecular water.

You do know that water is matter, correct? Or are you that scientifically illiterate that you don't understand basic terms taught to five year olds?

You do know that the actual stuff of the atoms of water take up 0.00000000001% of the space of the atom?
Atoms are barely material at all, they're scarcely the faint whiff of a homeopathic ghost fart..

What I am talking about is matter taking up all available space, pure absolute matter. No void space, no atomic space, no space not filled up with matter. 100% mass.

(September 28, 2016 at 8:53 am)chimp3 Wrote:

(September 28, 2016 at 8:14 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: You do know that water is matter, correct? Or are you that scientifically illiterate that you don't understand basic terms taught to five year olds?

Comparing infinitely dense matter to an ocean is like comparing a lead paper weight to a glass of tea.

To primitive man it's perfect; It appears to go on forever, it's a denser medium than air, wave forms rise and fall. And If you don't respect it, or turn your back on it, it will kill you by your own ignorance.

It can also be a source of life and livelyhood for those who do respect it and cast their nets into it.

(September 29, 2016 at 1:51 pm)robvalue Wrote: There's so many problems with "religious morality" it's hard to know where to start.

What it really comes down to, in reality, is "I'll do what god says as long as I was going to do it anyway". Or more precisely, you'll do what god says because it's you, talking to yourself. God always agrees with you. Funny that, isn't it?

The other problem is that atheists seem to figure out morality just fine without needing any access to god. So what use is he?

Where are all the atheists that figured out morality just fine? How do they know if their morality is correct or not? You don't know if your morality is superior to anyone else's or not. You've looked at life situations and decided what you think is right and wrong based on specific criteria. You really don't know if you've figured out morality right or not.

(September 29, 2016 at 1:51 pm)robvalue Wrote: There's so many problems with "religious morality" it's hard to know where to start.

What it really comes down to, in reality, is "I'll do what god says as long as I was going to do it anyway". Or more precisely, you'll do what god says because it's you, talking to yourself. God always agrees with you. Funny that, isn't it?

The other problem is that atheists seem to figure out morality just fine without needing any access to god. So what use is he?

Everything that happens, even if it's horrifically awful, is because God allows it to happen - even though he could stop it if he wanted to. He also loves us unconditionally, with...err...conditions. Apparently not promising his servants that they wouldn't suffer is just cause for him to not care about their suffering. What a nice fella - or poorly conceived character.

Oh, thanks for the rep!

(September 29, 2016 at 12:55 pm)robvalue Wrote: How do you determine whether God is good or evil, if you're using God as your standard? If God says "go ahead and rape", then rape is good? Or do you have your own morality already, and God is good if he confirms it?

I'm assuming, maybe incorrectly, you consider your actions and determine their effect on everything and make a decision based on that as to whether or not something is moral or immoral. I experience God in me and through that relationship I determine whether I believe in that God and whether he is trustworthy and good. I've also evaluated his actions as set forth in the bible and determined them to be good and just. I'm not of the mind that suffering or just punishment is unloving or is bad morality.

Quote:I still don't know how I would go about putting my faith in a higher power. I have literally no idea. I don't know what I would be trusting to them, and what difference it would be supposed to make.

When I get on an airplane, I'm handing my life over completely to the pilot. I first had to be convinced in my mind that the airplane is dependable and that the pilot is well-trained and isn't suicidal or whatever. I'm handing it all over to that person. I'm not doing it blindly, but have assessed the situation first. When the plane is in the air, if the pilot tells me to put my seat belt on because of turbulent conditions, I don't try to connect to the Weather Bureau and verify if he's right or not, I just do it. We've all put our faith and our lives in someone or something beyond ourselves.

When I first joined this forum, I was a christian, but really didn't have faith or trust in God. I had read scripture and had been taught about God and Jesus Christ, so I declared myself to be a christian. I was never challenged much on my views. I decided it was time to test my beliefs, by taking every rocket and arrow that could be thrown at me. I wanted to really know for sure that my faith was well-founded. After a while of having my previous suppositions challenged and refuted, I was getting pretty shaky about my christian faith because you all were knocking my foundation apart. I had no pull at all towards atheism because it just didn't make sense to me. I was very drawn to general theism or deism, but finally just could not accept the existence of a god who would just make a universe and then not car; that he would make people with spiritual inclinations and not relate to us. I heard a bible teacher say a couple times that being a christian isn't about reading the bible and deciding it's right and following it. It's about havingChrist. That's when it all came flowing in. God lives in me in the Spirit of Jesus Christ. I not only know God, but I possess his Spirit. Every minute I spend, he is here with me. That is when I realized what it means to give myself over to God. It's not like he tells me when to brush my teeth or whatever, but rather as long as I walk according to the Spirit, within me he is part of all my decisions. He is involved in every decision I make. That's how you put your faith in God.

(September 29, 2016 at 4:08 pm)Lek Wrote: When I get on an airplane, I'm handing my life over completely to the pilot.  I first had to be convinced in my mind that the airplane is dependable and that the pilot is well-trained and isn't suicidal or whatever.  I'm handing it all over to that person.  I'm not doing it blindly, but have assessed the situation first.  When the plane is in the air, if the pilot tells me to put my seat belt on because of turbulent conditions, I don't try to connect to the Weather Bureau and verify if he's right or not, I just do it.  We've all put our faith and our lives in someone or something beyond ourselves.

When I first joined this forum, I was a christian, but really didn't have faith or trust in God.  I had read scripture and had been taught about God and Jesus Christ, so I declared myself to be a christian.  I was never challenged much on my views.  I decided it was time to test my beliefs, by taking every rocket and arrow that could be thrown at me.  I wanted to really know for sure that my faith was well-founded.  After a while of having my previous suppositions challenged and refuted, I was getting pretty shaky about my christian faith because you all were knocking my foundation apart.  I had no pull at all towards atheism because it just didn't make sense to me.  I was very drawn to general theism or deism, but finally just could not accept the existence of a god who would just make a universe and then not car; that he would make people with spiritual inclinations and not relate to us.  I heard a bible teacher say a couple times that being a christian isn't about reading the bible and deciding it's right and following it.  It's about havingChrist.  That's when it all came flowing in.  God lives in me in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.  I not only know God, but I possess his Spirit.  Every minute I spend, he is here with me.  That is when I realized what it means to give myself over to God.  It's not like he tells me when to brush my teeth or whatever, but rather as long as I walk according to the Spirit, within me he is part of all my decisions.  He is involved in every decision I make.  That's how you put your faith in God.

I see what you're trying to say in the first paragraph here, but it's not a great lead-in to what you state in the second. An airline pilot is, in no way, beyond ourselves. They may have a skillset that you or I do not posses, but they are still human, and very real. The trust we may place in them is necessary and worthwhile, because if they screw up, there's a good chance that we're toast.

You continue by comparing a mundane scenario to an invisible security blanket. I do notice where you state that Atheism makes no sense, and you were inclined to lean toward Deism. That tells me that you need to believe that there is something beyond us, whether it is real or not. What your mind is doing is attributing a natural sensation (ex. emotion) to something that you want/need to believe exists, but is not really there. It's called Anthropopathism. Christians do it; Muslims do it; Hebrews do it; Hindus do it; and pretty much every devotee of every deity throughout the history of humankind has done it. Now ask yourself this: what is the general consensus in regards to the existence of all but a few of those deities now?

This is a bit off topic, but I'm going to be honest here, and say that this is a very good and interesting thread. It's also the first thread in which I offered more than a quick quip or joke, so I'm happy about that too.

(September 29, 2016 at 2:08 pm)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 28, 2016 at 5:24 am)chimp3 Wrote: OK. So may be an ocean is a bad analogy since an ocean is not infinite and solid. OK. So, now we are comparing a loving god to either magma or limitless light? I do not see the similarity? If homogeneous what do the 10 veils consist of ?

To primitive man, the ocean appears infinite.
Have you ever been head over heels in young love?  Did you feel like there was anything in the world that could stop you?

The 10 veils are different: 2 are solid objects, 1 is a field, 1 is a massless 2 spin membrane, another is a vertical electromagnetic field and 4 are horizontal toroidal EM fields like tokamaks

Your only saving grace will come if you could parlay your imaginative ideas into sci-fi fantasy. Otherwise simply a spinner of pure nonsense threads.

Still no idea what's going on I'm afraid. Thanks for trying.

There is no such thing as "correct" morality. It's based on value judgements. I don't give a monkeys what god's opinion is, if there is such a being.

It gets further complicated in religion: does morality mean doing what's best for people, or doing what God wants? If they are the same thing, God is irrelevant. If they are different, God poisons morality.

If you look at the bible and God and decide whether he is good or not, you already have your morality in place. You can't have it both ways.

a loving God, I believed the Christian bible and the words to be true and placed them into my life style, , for over thirty years ,but then I do think if God loves us, why would he use a punishment so awful that it be torment and hell for ever,
like say for I,E,
if I believed in God and my mother did not, she would go to hell, and god would love me over her, ? is this justified or morally correct,
I love my mother, and I think God should also ,she is not a bad person, and she has sacrificed all to raise me, ...huh.....?

Exactly. Any being which creates a system of punishment from which there is no escape is evil. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

It also shows how lacking in confidence it is in its ability to convince people. I mean, I used to be a maths teacher and I could get people to believe things without carrying around a torture rack. I had confidence in myself. And I wouldn't want them to just say they believed it so I didn't torture them, either.

What kind of sick fuck is this guy? Apart from fear, why is anyone giving him the time of day?