RE: Proverbs 16:4
June 4, 2011 at 8:52 am
(This post was last modified: June 4, 2011 at 9:17 am by Zenith.)
I said I would answer to this topic... and this was left... but didn't pretty have the time, nor disposition lately...
Now to get back to where I've started from:
Now perhaps it was useless to write this post, as I guess Doubting Thomas is not quite interested of the Reformed Christianity doctrine.
P.S. Statler Waldorf, I don't know the big difference between Calvinism and Reformed Christianity, so if I made a mistake or something, feel free to say it.
And, how old are you?
I know you didn't make my Christian feedback list, but if you really want to talk with me about this subject, you'll have to bring arguments yourself. I'm not going to read a 50 pages text of which I won't agree with almost anything and spend a lot of time and do a lot of effort to reply to everything while you only send links (which is a great unbalance of effort and time spent, me vs. you, first of all).
So if you can write an explanation yourself (rather than giving a link or copy-pasting) and really do that, and write more than 3 lines of text in that post (i.e. I expect a much larger explanation than 3 or 4 lines), then I will discuss this topic with you.
and to everythingafter: if there are things to say about what I've written, I'll expect your reply.
And, one more point, I forgot to mention last time, perhaps it is useful to know: unlike it is preached everywhere, according to the bible, not every man is a son of God (it is that theory that God is the father of His creation, so that any man is a son/child of God). The fact is that, in the bible, in the new covenant, people are being 'adopted' by God - this is the way a man can become a son/child of God. See verses John 8.41-44 and Romans 8.14-16.
(May 25, 2011 at 7:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Thank you kindly, appreciate it.Extremely wicked sounds very much like "totally depraved". Wicked also has to do with man's morality (at least as far as I know).
I will put what you said in quotes and then what the position is, you were close on some of it.
Quote: First means: The man is initially extremely wicked.
Total Depravity is not so much about man being wicked (even though he is), it has to do with man’s moral ability. His will and moral ability are wholly affected by sin. So if left to his own devices he is utterly incapable of responding to the gospel in a positive manner. He is dead in sin, and requires regeneration by the Holy Spirit before any spiritual life will be found.
Quote:"we believe he has sheep in the catholic church as well as the protestant church" - doesn't that deny your own doctrine? I thought that in protestant religions, only those who "get saved" go to heaven (and "getting saved" has a different meaning from christian orthodoxy or catholicism). Second off, "random choice" is the same as "a will & purpose of God which is based on nothing logical and nothing concrete".Zenith Wrote:Second means: God chose, most surely before the creation of the earth, all man which He would "save" (i.e. make Christians of the right doctrine), but that choice is based on nothing, it's only a random thing God did. The others go to hell.This one is a little off. Yes, God chose whom he would grant saving grace to before the foundation of the world. However, it was not only those of a certain Christian doctrine, we believe he has sheep in the catholic church as well as the protestant church. All those whom he chose do come to and trust in Christ. This choice is unconditional in the fact that it is not based upon anything in man, or foreseen faith or actions. Though it I would not say it is random, it is according to the kind intention of His will and His purpose (Ephesians 1-2).
Quote:I meant "L", but I think here both Limited Atonement and Irresistible grace are included - if God chose you before the foundation of the world, then you go to heaven (no matter what). else you go to hell (no matter what).Zenith Wrote:Third means: If you are one of those elected (or, chosen) by God before the Creation of the world, then you will finally convert to the right Christian doctrine (Reformed Christian, or something similar to that), and finally go to heaven.I think you are referring to the “I” here and not the “L”. The “L” represents the belief that Chris atoned for the sins of God’s elect on the cross and this atonement was perfect in intention and merit. He did not waste any atonement on those who would not be saved. The “I” represents the fact that God’s grace is powerful enough to overcome even the most depraved individual, He never fails in saving. Neither of these things has to do with a “right” Christian doctrine though.
Quote:Yeah, this should have been point 5, not 4. And this above is pretty the same odd: if God chose you before the foundation of the world, you will convert (because He decided so and decided when) and then God forces you to be how He wants you to be.Zenith Wrote:Fourth means, if I am not wrong: After you have been converted to the right Christian doctrine, you persevere in a holy life.Again, close but not only those believing a certain doctrine. Pretty much God’s grace helps believers persevere until the end, so all of those whom He elected die as believers.
Now to get back to where I've started from:
Doubting Thomas Wrote:So if we can't make sense out of any of the bible or Christian beliefs in general, that means we won't be judged and get a free ticket to heaven? Cool!The doctrine of Statler Waldorf is that, if you have been elected before the creation of the world, you will finally convert (willingly or unwillingly) and make sense of the bible and the Christian beliefs and you will go to heaven. Otherwise, if you have not been elected before the creation of the world, then you will not make sense of the bible or the christian beliefs and will never convert and will go to hell.
Now perhaps it was useless to write this post, as I guess Doubting Thomas is not quite interested of the Reformed Christianity doctrine.
P.S. Statler Waldorf, I don't know the big difference between Calvinism and Reformed Christianity, so if I made a mistake or something, feel free to say it.
And, how old are you?
(May 26, 2011 at 6:55 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
I know you didn't make my Christian feedback list, but if you really want to talk with me about this subject, you'll have to bring arguments yourself. I'm not going to read a 50 pages text of which I won't agree with almost anything and spend a lot of time and do a lot of effort to reply to everything while you only send links (which is a great unbalance of effort and time spent, me vs. you, first of all).
So if you can write an explanation yourself (rather than giving a link or copy-pasting) and really do that, and write more than 3 lines of text in that post (i.e. I expect a much larger explanation than 3 or 4 lines), then I will discuss this topic with you.
and to everythingafter: if there are things to say about what I've written, I'll expect your reply.
And, one more point, I forgot to mention last time, perhaps it is useful to know: unlike it is preached everywhere, according to the bible, not every man is a son of God (it is that theory that God is the father of His creation, so that any man is a son/child of God). The fact is that, in the bible, in the new covenant, people are being 'adopted' by God - this is the way a man can become a son/child of God. See verses John 8.41-44 and Romans 8.14-16.
let's keep it OT and save those personal quips and comments about telling someone to leave to a PM please.
