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November 3, 2016 at 11:50 am (This post was last modified: November 3, 2016 at 11:53 am by Mister Agenda.)
alpha male Wrote:
downbeatplumb Wrote:It is not in itself evidence but it can indicate that something will need closer investigation.
That's a dodge. It's no different from saying, Yes, it's evidence, but it's inconclusive on its own.
It's not evidence at all. It's a claim. If you believe a claim, it's because of credibility and plausibility, not evidence. Trump claims to have assaulted women. Given his history and personality, his claim seems plausible; although he's also a braggart, so it's also plausible it was just talk.
Anecdotes and testimony have to be analyzed and compared to what is known in order to determine if they're true.
(November 3, 2016 at 11:26 am)Rhythm Wrote: What you [Alpha Male] may find more likely hardly speaks to whether or not anecdotes are useful, or evidence[...]
November 3, 2016 at 11:55 am (This post was last modified: November 3, 2016 at 11:56 am by Edwardo Piet.)
@ Mister Agenda.
The anecdotes themselves aren't evidence. No story is evidence... it's how they match up with other stories/anecdotes that is evidence. Inductive logic is used to determine that it's improbable that multiple stories would be matching, and that equates to evidence. Take any one person's story or anecdote and isolate it... that isn't evidence, that's a claim and a story/anecdote. You can't use the claim or story itself as evidence for itself at all, not even weakly, that would be circular.
(November 3, 2016 at 11:55 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: You can't use the claim or story itself as evidence for itself at all, not even weakly, that would be circular.
The anecdotes themselves aren't evidence. No story is evidence... it's how they match up with other stories/anecdotes that is evidence. Inductive logic is used to determine that it's improbable that multiple stories would be matching, and that equates to evidence. Take any one person's story or anecdote and isolate it... that isn't evidence, that's a claim and a story/anecdote. You can't use the claim or story itself as evidence for itself at all, not even weakly, that would be circular.
I realized that when I was thinking it through and edited my post accordingly, sorry I wasn't fast enough to avoid confusion.
November 3, 2016 at 12:07 pm (This post was last modified: November 3, 2016 at 12:15 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
A simple google search would bare out the fact that, even in the loosest sense of the word "useful" (that I think people expressing such an opinion are using) anecdote is only admissible as evidence (note that this is legalese, things admitted -as- evidence are not always evidence..that's just the category of discovery) when it aligns with an empirical fact, and that even then, a valid objection might still be raised against it....having the testimony stricken.
No web of anecdote- however large and impressive, even after inductive reasoning, is or should be able to secure a conviction. That would be a travesty of justice. A conviction by the mob assigning guilt by crooked pointed fingers, and we've been down that road before..which is -why- purely anecdotal evidence is not, generally, admissible.
"She's a witch, she cursed my cattle, and my penis used to be at least -twice- as large as it is now!"
-I know, I know, -we- would have issues with the credibility of such a claim, or the plausibility of witchcraft..but if you didn't (and there was a time....) would it then -become- evidence...if, say, a whole town said they saw it? No, ofc not. I love this example, because, in a sick sort of way, I admire modern day prosecutors in, say, arab states...that secure convictions of witchcraft. To my mind, you've gotta be pretty damned good at what you do, at presenting "evidence" which isn;t evidence, and convincing people that useless anecdote has value, transferring the assumed credibility of a witness to their -testimony-...as though that weren't ludicrous on it's very face.
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November 3, 2016 at 7:30 pm (This post was last modified: November 3, 2016 at 7:32 pm by RoadRunner79.)
(November 1, 2016 at 10:56 pm)Irrational Wrote:
(November 1, 2016 at 10:26 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
Thanks Benny,
I don't think that we are as far a part, as it may seem. I agree, I think that some of the issue is semantics, and what is meant by evidence. I appreciate you explaining your view; it helps me to understand quite a bit. In contrast, I think that evidence, is more the reason, that I am persuaded rather than the other way around of becoming evidence; because I am persuaded by it (at least I hope so). I believe that persuasion is subjective, and what you may find appealing, I may not. Reason and thus what is reasonable I think are objective, and exist whether or not anyone is swayed by it. I can provide you with evidence, but I cannot make you be persuaded. I can also wrestle with and admit evidence, even though I may not be convinced by it.
Again, I'm not saying, that you trust every claim that is thrown your way. I am skeptical..... I check things out. And despite the many imagined motivations for me creating this thread, a primary reason, was because I don't just buy into the claim that testimony is not evidence. I don't automatically dismiss it either, and wanted to discuss and test this claim. I'm not cynical enough, to just dismiss 99% of testimony as B.S. And humility prevents me, from thinking that I know it all, or can judge based on what I know. But I do question, and more likely than not, look for collaborating evidence.
Testimony is not necessarily 100% bullshit, of course. But you can't ever rely on testimony as your primary evidence for claims that are non-mundane and especially that relate to knowledge about the way reality is and works.
I am willing to compromise. I can believe that you all are either lying, crazy or delusional, until you provide empirical evidence to me and generally pretend to be hyper-skeptical. Should make the next thread about a police officer involved shooting fairly interesting (although I may gain some haters). I'll start by rejecting your claim about testimony and the way reality really works.
(November 2, 2016 at 12:20 pm)Rhythm Wrote: it was to provide an example of an important life decision of your own that you made based upon .anecdote.
It would depend on how you define anecdote; but, given the way I am often seeing it used here, pretty much all of them, that where not based on first hand experience.
RoadRunner, could you please give specific examples of anecdotes which you think might serve as useful evidence? And, if this thread will be to have any specific interests to Christians like you or atheists like most of the others-- examples of anecdotes which serve as evidence of any of the more important tenets of the Christian religion?
(November 3, 2016 at 8:18 pm)bennyboy Wrote: RoadRunner, could you please give specific examples of anecdotes which you think might serve as useful evidence? And, if this thread will be to have any specific interests to Christians like you or atheists like most of the others-- examples of anecdotes which serve as evidence of any of the more important tenets of the Christian religion?
My understanding of an anecdote, is a short or amusing story, usually told as an example. Because of the brevity, and normally lack of details, I wouldn't normally consider them evidence, except perhaps where a previously established trust or background information is already established.
