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There has to be a God/Creator
#1
There has to be a God/Creator
I am of no religion, but the thought of there being a God is as obvious as my own existence!
Please don't make the mistake of classifying me as you would the typical religious believer!

There is a question I put to all "atheist"!

How is it possible that mathematics, a product of human thought that is independent of experience, fits so excellently the objects of physical reality?

The "greatest European mathematician of the middle ages", as claimed by some, was Leonardo of Pisa, or Leonardo Pisano in Italian since he was born in Pisa (Italy),about 1175 AD. He called himself Fibonacci!
It is claimed by some that he was one of the first people to introduce the Hindu-Arabic number system into Europe - the positional system we use today - based on ten digits with its decimal point and a symbol for zero: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, ,8 ,9 ,0. His book on how to do arithmetic in the decimal system, called Liber abbaci (meaning Book of the Abacus or Book of Calculating) persuaded many European mathematicians of his day to use this "new" system.
The book describes (in Latin) the rules mankind now learns in basic schooling for adding numbers, subtracting, multiplying and dividing, together with many problems to illustrate the methods. But, it also describes in one chapter a series of numbers, which he took from Indian scholars, who had long been interested in rhythmic patterns, and it was the French mathematician Edouard Lucas (1842-1891) who gave the name Fibonacci numbers to this series and found many other important applications of them.
The series is:
0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987 etc.
As you may be able to see, the next number in the series is constructed from the addition of the two previous numbers.
Also, related to these series of numbers is the Golden ratio, Phi. To calculate an approximation of Phi, you choose a higher number in the series, and divide it by the number preceding it.
Phi = 987 / 610, or approximately 1.618.
And the inverse of Phi is phi, which is:
phi = 610 / 987, or approximately 0.618
Both Phi and the inverse of Phi (phi) are often called the Golden Section numbers. They are mathematically unique numbers, in that 1 + phi = Phi, and 1/phi = Phi. But they are also unique and highly present numbers in the material universe.

Mathematical Progressions in Creation
So what does all this have to do with belief in God? Well, these numbers, as well as many other numeric sequences, continually appear in what man calls nature, but what I call Creation.

The Pinecone
The spirals of a pinecone have a clockwise rotation, and an anti-clockwise rotation, and in both cases if the number of spirals is counted in each rotation, each count will be a number contained within the Fibonacci series of numbers (8 and 13). The same principle applies to a pineapple as well, but the numbers of spirals are 13 and 23, still numbers appearing in the Fibonacci series.

The Cauliflower and Romanesque Broccoli/Cauliflower

For the cauliflower, the spirals are 5 and 8. For the Romanesque Broccoli, the spirals are 13 and 21.

The Coneflower
Petal spirals are 34 and 55. The sunflower seed arrangement is similar, but with the numbers 55 and 89.

Seed and Flower Heads
Each new seed is just phi (0•618) of a turn from the last one (or, equivalently, there are Phi (1•618) seeds per turn).
What God has used is the same pattern to place seeds on a seed head as He used to arrange petals around the edge of a flower AND to place leaves round a stem. What is more, ALL of these maintain their efficiency as the plant continues to grow and that's a lot to ask of a single process, and all of these relate to the Phi, or the Golden Rule.
The amazing thing is that a single fixed angle can produce the optimal design no matter how big the plant grows. So, once an angle is fixed for a leaf, say, that leaf will least obscure the leaves below and be least obscured by any future leaves above it. Similarly, once a seed is positioned on a seed head, the seed continues out in a straight line pushed out by other new seeds, but retaining the original angle on the seed head. No matter how large the seed head, the seeds will always be packed uniformly on the seed head.
The arrangement of leaves is the same as for seeds and petals. All are placed at 0•618034.. leaves, (seeds, petals) per turn, and this single fixed angle is Phi.
If there are Phi (1•618...) leaves per turn (or, equivalently, phi=0•618... turns per leaf ), then we have the best packing so that each leaf gets the maximum exposure to light, casting the least shadow on the others. This also gives the best possible area exposed to falling rain so the rain is directed back along the leaf and down the stem to the roots. For flowers or petals, it gives the best possible exposure to insects to attract them for pollination

Plant Growth
Many plants show the Fibonacci numbers in the arrangements of the leaves around their stems. If we look down on a plant, the leaves are often arranged so that leaves above do not hide leaves below, and the angle of rotation is based upon phi.

Petals on Flowers
3 petals: lily, iris (Often lilies have 6 petals formed from two sets of 3)
5 petals: buttercup, wild rose, larkspur, columbine (aquilegia), pinks
8 petals: delphiniums
13 petals: ragwort, corn marigold, cineraria, some daisies
21 petals: aster, black-eyed susan, chicory
34 petals: plantain, pyrethrum
55, 89 petals: michaelmas daisies, the asteraceae family.
Some species are very precise about the number of petals they have - eg buttercups, but others have petals that are very near those above, with the average being a Fibonacci number.

Appearance of Spirals
Spirals of a similar nature appear within flower petals, plant leaves, plant branch growth, animal reproduction, the unborn child, human body growth, seashells, hair curls, hurricanes and galaxies. The above information just scratches the surface.


If you think that everything around you is chaos, then you need to reconsider, because everything from the microscopic to universal aggregate is striving toward simple and beautiful geometric patterns, striving towards complete order.

Man has discovered, and is continuing to discover, mathematical beauty in the world around him. He can drill down into the smallest thing that he can see, or look upwards to the largest thing he can conceive, and in it all there is order and design.

The presence of these mathematical series in creation, because of the order and design, can only suggest an intelligent Designer. A Creator does exist, and this Creator is intelligent, infinitely more intelligent than man, since man understands an infinitesimal portion of the universe this Creator has made.

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#2
RE: There has to be a God/Creator
(June 8, 2011 at 12:39 pm)Andrastos Wrote:


Intelligent design is so gauche.
Trying to update my sig ...
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#3
RE: There has to be a God/Creator
(June 8, 2011 at 12:39 pm)Andrastos Wrote: I am of no religion, although the thought of there being a God is as obvious as my own existence!
Please don't make the mistake of classifying me as you would the typical religious believer!

Like we haven't heard that before Undecided

(June 8, 2011 at 12:39 pm)Andrastos Wrote: There is a question I put to all "atheist"!

How is it possible that mathematics, a product of human thought that is independent of experience, fits so excellently the objects of physical reality?

I'd say that you were simply reverse engineering the reality around you to fit into your own views as a pattern seeking primate.
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#4
RE: There has to be a God/Creator
So noticing a pattern and that it fits the universe is untruthful? How?
And in heaven is your Sustenance, as (also) that which ye are promised - Surah Adh-Dhariyat
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#5
RE: There has to be a God/Creator
Not noticing a pattern that fits the universe. Obviously it fits the universe as it's the universe that has provided the pattern Undecided

Noticing a pattern and then anthropomorphising it to fit in with your own desires about the nature of reality is the problem.
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#6
RE: There has to be a God/Creator
(June 8, 2011 at 12:39 pm)Andrastos Wrote: The presence of these mathematical series in creation, because of the order and design, can only suggest an intelligent Designer.

arguement from "I think this, therefore it's correct".

If you want to be mathematical, you are fractally wrong. That means you are wrong on every level.

Fail. Next contestant please.
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#7
RE: There has to be a God/Creator
Just because you dont understand physics doesnt mean there is a god.
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#8
RE: There has to be a God/Creator
99.9999% of the Universe is hard vacuum.
99.9999% of what's left is flaming nuclear fireballs.
99.9999% of what's left from that is cold interstellar gas.
99.9999% of what's left from that is barren, airless balls of rock or gas giants, neither of which can sustain life.
99.9999% of what's left from that is barely habitable planets like Mars.
Then we come to Earth.
The Creator is an idiot. Or would be if one existed.
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#9
RE: There has to be a God/Creator
Andrastos, you're just as delusional as the rest of them. And what do you mean by "atheist"? Does that make you "Gods [sic, since I think you mean God's] truth"?
Just because certain shapes and ratios have proven to be e.g. beneficial in energy conservation in plants, does not make it suddenly proof of an intelligent creator.
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura

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#10
RE: There has to be a God/Creator
(June 8, 2011 at 12:58 pm)Darwinian Wrote: Not noticing a pattern that fits the universe. Obviously it fits the universe as it's the universe that has provided the pattern Undecided

Noticing a pattern and then anthropomorphising it to fit in with your own desires about the nature of reality is the problem.

Imposible!
Please no irrational answers!

I should have metiond that this was a question asked by albert einstein, one that he was unable to answer!
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