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(June 8, 2011 at 2:08 am)5thHorseman Wrote: Our arguments are generally intelligent, thought provoking, and not based on a book.
Not sure what being based on a book has to do with anything, but I think Christian apologetics is generally intelligent and thought provoking as well.
Quote: To answer your question, I find it unbelievable that people of the same religion cannot agree on a single book, how hard can it be. It matters because where I live (Uk) Christians are still are fighting other christians.(northern Ireland)
I think that is just a testament to how accurately Jesus nailed the human condition, people are sinners; they fight over all sorts of things.
(June 7, 2011 at 7:24 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: [quote='5thHorseman' pid='143315' dateline='1307470326']
Being a brit, all this stuff seems a bit weird, so I thought I'd browse a Christianity site. OMFG, they can't agree on anything. Seeing threads like 'how has god helped you' made me cringe. People saying things happen because god decides it, quickly followed by another Christian saying I don't believe god interferes etc. I take it many of you have seen this turd, but I think a nice link to insanity is fit here.
Maybe I am missing the point here, but who cares if Christians disagree on things? Atheists disagree all the time on things.
Not to our beliefs on deity, or it's power, or our interpretation of atheism, it's quite simple. Christians on the other hand squabble over many, many things, like whether the bible is word for work or a metaphoric orgy. Us atheist know it's a plagiarised load of nonsense.
I really don't see it that way. Atheists disagree on a whole slew of matters including is it possible God exists, are morals relative?, how life began on earth, the purpose of life, did Jesus ever exist?, the power/limitations of science, among many others. Just look at my "13 Questions" thread there are all sorts of different answers given to those questions by atheists, but the theists’ answers are all for the most part very similar. I think the only thing atheists really can agree on is that God or gods do not exist. Christians may disagree on doctrinal issues but there is far more they agree on than they disagree on. I will give you one thing though, there’s a very popular movement amongst Christians today to not study apologetics and theology. I think this is very sad, and it does lead to a lot of disagreement on issues just because people have never really studied what scripture actually says on that issue. I am just wondering what you think the fact Christians disagree on things even means though? Why should it matter?
I shouldn't get involved with this ... but damnit I'm going to.
You have a mild point Statler - Atheists don't always agree ... but it doesn't matter, they are not supporting a worldwide religion for others to adhere to.
... that is not my issue with your rebuttal.
When 5Horse said that Christians disagree a lot I think he is trying to say that Christianity is not remotely unified in it's doctrines and beliefs.
... still not really my issue with your rebuttal.
This is what I see as a biased fabrication in your rebuttal:
Statler Wrote:Christians may disagree on doctrinal issues but there is far more they agree on than they disagree on.
There are literally hundreds of denominations that claim the flag of Christianity. Not only do they disagree on doctrinal issues - they disagree on the tiniest of issues. Case in point. My neighbor across the street attends a "christian" church. His pastor is gay and they don't even believe that Jesus Christ was son of god. Rather a prophet of god. In my father's church of 1500 members, they believe that wine was grape juice and that it is a sin to smoke a cigarette or even go to a movie theater. I could go on an on. Christians ABSOLUTELY, and without a doubt disagree with each other constantly and without hesitation.
I would go as far as to say that it is far more common to see the differences between various Christians than it is to see any similarities. From denomination to denomination, you people are almost NEVER in agreement.
June 8, 2011 at 3:43 am (This post was last modified: June 8, 2011 at 3:43 am by Statler Waldorf.)
(June 8, 2011 at 3:09 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote:
When 5Horse said that Christians disagree a lot I think he is trying to say that Christianity is not remotely unified in it's doctrines and beliefs.
... still not really my issue with your rebuttal.
I agree with that, I never said that Christianity was united on all fronts. I actually think that denominationalism is one of the faith’s biggest strengths, not weaknesses.
(June 8, 2011 at 3:09 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote:
This is what I see as a biased fabrication in your rebuttal
I think fabrication is a bit harsh, it’s my opinion. Christians disagree on doctrine yes, but they do not disagree on dogma. Dogma is what makes a church by definition a Christian church. These are things like the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, etc. All I know is that I can list way more dogmatic beliefs with Christianity than I can doctrinal, so that is why I said they agree on more than they disagree on. I’ll give an example, let’s look at two denominations….Orthodox Presbyterianism and Reformed Baptists, I chose these two because I am very familiar with both.
Differences between them: Their church governments are run differently. Their view on the Lord ’s Supper is slightly different. Their view on the meaning of “graven images” is different in the Ten Commandments. One practices Credo Baptism the other Infant Baptism. I am not aware of any other differences in their confessions.
Similarities: The deity of Christ, the trinity, the inerrancy of scripture, the millennium, the resurrection of Christ, Christ’s two natures, the five solas, the Virgin birth, predestination, corporate worship, the justice of hell, all of God’s attributes, the nature of Christ’s atonement, the Holy Spirit’s roles, Cessationism, Creation, the extent of the flood, the literal truth of all the old testament stories, God’s providence, not to mention a host of family and marriage issues. That’s what I can list off the top of my head
There is a Christian school where I live that I have coached at and it is a non-denominational school so it has students who are Catholic, Baptist, Charismatic, etc. They agreed on most things and got a long fine. So that’s my two cents.
When 5Horse said that Christians disagree a lot I think he is trying to say that Christianity is not remotely unified in it's doctrines and beliefs.
... still not really my issue with your rebuttal.
I agree with that, I never said that Christianity was united on all fronts. I actually think that denominationalism is one of the faith’s biggest strengths, not weaknesses.
(June 8, 2011 at 3:09 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote:
This is what I see as a biased fabrication in your rebuttal
I think fabrication is a bit harsh, it’s my opinion. Christians disagree on doctrine yes, but they do not disagree on dogma. Dogma is what makes a church by definition a Christian church. These are things like the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, etc. All I know is that I can list way more dogmatic beliefs with Christianity than I can doctrinal, so that is why I said they agree on more than they disagree on. I’ll give an example, let’s look at two denominations….Orthodox Presbyterianism and Reformed Baptists, I chose these two because I am very familiar with both.
Differences between them: Their church governments are run differently. Their view on the Lord ’s Supper is slightly different. Their view on the meaning of “graven images” is different in the Ten Commandments. One practices Credo Baptism the other Infant Baptism. I am not aware of any other differences in their confessions.
Similarities: The deity of Christ, the trinity, the inerrancy of scripture, the millennium, the resurrection of Christ, Christ’s two natures, the five solas, the Virgin birth, predestination, corporate worship, the justice of hell, all of God’s attributes, the nature of Christ’s atonement, the Holy Spirit’s roles, Cessationism, Creation, the extent of the flood, the literal truth of all the old testament stories, God’s providence, not to mention a host of family and marriage issues. That’s what I can list off the top of my head
There is a Christian school where I live that I have coached at and it is a non-denominational school so it has students who are Catholic, Baptist, Charismatic, etc. They agreed on most things and got a long fine. So that’s my two cents.
Point taken.
However, regarding your non-denom school - I never said you couldn't get along with each other. My father is an uber-fundy baptist - he get's along ok with several catholics, but they are always in standard disagreement mode. Also, the similarities you mentioned; although several of those items are dogmatic in the religion, many of them could not be considered as such because they are so subject to interpolation. predestination, corporate worship, hell, the holy spirits roles, the flood, OT stories, family, divorce and marriage ... all of those things are debated heavily within the church (remember I use to be one of you).
I'm not saying I don't see your point. I do, but I'm going to have to disagree with you about the amount of agreement you seem to think exists. I don't think it's anywhere near as great as you would make claim ..... but we come from two different camps, so that should not be a surprise.
June 8, 2011 at 6:03 pm (This post was last modified: June 8, 2011 at 6:04 pm by Statler Waldorf.)
(June 8, 2011 at 1:16 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote:
Point taken.
However, regarding your non-denom school - I never said you couldn't get along with each other. My father is an uber-fundy baptist - he get's along ok with several catholics, but they are always in standard disagreement mode. Also, the similarities you mentioned; although several of those items are dogmatic in the religion, many of them could not be considered as such because they are so subject to interpolation. predestination, corporate worship, hell, the holy spirits roles, the flood, OT stories, family, divorce and marriage ... all of those things are debated heavily within the church (remember I use to be one of you).
I'm not saying I don't see your point. I do, but I'm going to have to disagree with you about the amount of agreement you seem to think exists. I don't think it's anywhere near as great as you would make claim ..... but we come from two different camps, so that should not be a surprise.
Yes you are right, the similarities there are not dogmatic issues, they are just similarities between two of the older protestant denominations. If you compared those two denominations with Catholics for instance you would for sure have far more differences than similarities. I actually hate having discussions with Catholics because they treat the papacy as having the same divine authority as scripture, so you really can't get anywhere with them because from a pre-suppositional perspective they are just very different than Protestants. I am not saying many of them don't have a saving faith in Christ, I just think they focus on the wrong issues sometimes.
>>Maybe I am missing the point here, but who >>cares if Christians disagree on things? >>Atheists disagree all the time on things.
On the other hand, if all these people have a close personal realationship with God, you might expect him to be consistent about what he reveals to them... its no wonder we dont take them seriously.
[quote='Statler Waldorf' pid='143425' dateline='1307489085']
[quote='5thHorseman' pid='143315' dateline='1307470326']
Being a brit, all this stuff seems a bit weird, so I thought I'd browse a Christianity site. OMFG, they can't agree on anything. Seeing threads like 'how has god helped you' made me cringe. People saying things happen because god decides it, quickly followed by another Christian saying I don't believe god interferes etc. I take it many of you have seen this turd, but I think a nice link to insanity is fit here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7565902/
Maybe I am missing the point here, but who cares if Christians disagree on things? Atheists disagree all the time on things.
Not to our beliefs on deity, or it's power, or our interpretation of atheism, it's quite simple. Christians on the other hand squabble over many, many things, like whether the bible is word for work or a metaphoric orgy. Us atheist know it's a plagiarised load of nonsense.
I really don't see it that way. Atheists disagree on a whole slew of matters including is it possible God exists, are morals relative?, how life began on earth, the purpose of life, did Jesus ever exist?, the power/limitations of science, among many others. Just look at my "13 Questions" thread there are all sorts of different answers given to those questions by atheists, but the theists’ answers are all for the most part very similar. I think the only thing atheists really can agree on is that God or gods do not exist. Christians may disagree on doctrinal issues but there is far more they agree on than they disagree on. I will give you one thing though, there’s a very popular movement amongst Christians today to not study apologetics and theology. I think this is very sad, and it does lead to a lot of disagreement on issues just because people have never really studied what scripture actually says on that issue. I am just wondering what you think the fact Christians disagree on things even means though? Why should it matter?
[/
yes why should it matter? because it does! such a vague minded thing to say. "where i the bible does it mention dinosaurs?.. oh who cares" me! i care alot! if you dont want to answer the questions then atleast question the questions! they have a standing in this sort of topic and must not be ignored. IGNORANCE IS THE ESSENCE OF RELIGION.
June 9, 2011 at 6:38 pm (This post was last modified: June 9, 2011 at 6:47 pm by Statler Waldorf.)
(June 8, 2011 at 9:31 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:I think fabrication is a bit harsh,
Fabrication is the perfect word...for xtianity and every other doctrine ever created by the human mind of some con artist.
When I make bold assertions I am asked to provide evidence to support them, I'd expect you to do the same.
(June 8, 2011 at 9:19 pm)Iandecal Wrote:
>>Maybe I am missing the point here, but who >>cares if Christians disagree on things? >>Atheists disagree all the time on things.
On the other hand, if all these people have a close personal realationship with God, you might expect him to be consistent about what he reveals to them... its no wonder we dont take them seriously.
God was consistent in His revelation, scripture is God’s revelation and it is available for anyone who wants to read it.
(June 8, 2011 at 10:17 pm)aidoism Wrote:
I really don't see it that way. Atheists disagree on a whole slew of matters including is it possible God exists, are morals relative?, how life began on earth, the purpose of life, did Jesus ever exist?, the power/limitations of science, among many others. Just look at my "13 Questions" thread there are all sorts of different answers given to those questions by atheists, but the theists’ answers are all for the most part very similar. I think the only thing atheists really can agree on is that God or gods do not exist. Christians may disagree on doctrinal issues but there is far more they agree on than they disagree on. I will give you one thing though, there’s a very popular movement amongst Christians today to not study apologetics and theology. I think this is very sad, and it does lead to a lot of disagreement on issues just because people have never really studied what scripture actually says on that issue. I am just wondering what you think the fact Christians disagree on things even means though? Why should it matter?
[/
yes why should it matter? because it does! such a vague minded thing to say. "where i the bible does it mention dinosaurs?.. oh who cares" me! i care alot! if you dont want to answer the questions then atleast question the questions! they have a standing in this sort of topic and must not be ignored. IGNORANCE IS THE ESSENCE OF RELIGION.
Where did I say seeking Truth didn't matter? I wanted to know why the fact that Christians disagree mattered to the original poster and what his point was.
Anymouse
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(June 9, 2011 at 6:38 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: God was consistent in His revelation, scripture is God’s revelation and it is available for anyone who wants to read it.
But which one is the one God was consistent with? The original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek? Innumerable translations since then? Modifications to the Canon which have taken place since it was supposedly settled over sixteen hundred years ago?
There is no "one Scripture." Depends on which variant of the Bible a particular church selects as "scriptural."
I've heard it said (I do not know if it is true) that Islam only regards the Arabic version of the Koran as "true," because that is the language it was written in. Presumably they wish to avoid what the Christian churches have done: picked and chosen which version of the Bible is Scripture, and which are not.
The KJV for example, is only four hundred years old this year. Ain't a word of Hebrew or Greek in it. And most people to-day cannot read four hundred year old English (such as Shakespeare), so it is safe to presume they can't read the KJV, either.
"Be ye not lost amongst Precept of Order." - Book of Uterus, 1:5, "Principia Discordia, or How I Found Goddess and What I Did to Her When I Found Her."
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