(April 18, 2009 at 6:31 am)Giff Wrote:

(April 18, 2009 at 4:44 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Welcome

You don't sound so excited Kyu. A "!" wouldn't hurt or a "?" if you want to create confusion

Er ... whut?

Kyu

(April 20, 2009 at 4:49 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Welcome Rizzo! Welcome to the forums.

I am wondering what this something that you believe there is, is.
Now I understand that you don't know that's why you just believe that there is "something" - but if it's just mysteries things that science or whatever is yet to discover, (like further bizzare seemingly surreal advancements of some kind, like in the field of Quantum Theory for example) - then what would constitute that as "spiritual" in your opinion?

How are you defining 'spiritual' what do you mean by it?

Once again, welcome!

EvF

Ah! Excellent question!

The key phrase in that is that there's something else out there outside of science <b>as we currently know it.</b>

At one time, how the seasons changed or how the stars lit up the night sky were outside of science as we knew it. Now we know more and have more advanced equipment to study it with.

Someday, we will probably be able to study what we can't now, provided we don't go ahead and finish off the human race before we get the chance.

I've stated that I <b>could</b> believe in something else out there that would fall under the catagory of supernatural. Things like spirits and ghosts and magic. No, I don't absolutly believe, but I don't absolutly disbelieve, either. Both are closed minded. Maybe you could call me a weak atheist? I dunno.

Anyway, even if I believed in that, the world is just too chaotic to believe in any all powerful God.

N-E-way, thanx for the welcome!

---

(April 17, 2009 at 9:09 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: Connecticut? Then you're in my neck of the words. I'm a born and bred Bostonian. How do you like the move to Connecticut? I have a lot of friends from New Britain, CT

Not too bad, but alot colder than Oklahoma. At least I don't have to deal with some of the Jesus inspired nut-jobs we get in Oklahoma. Anyone here heard of Sally Kern? Her church was about two miles from where I lived.

The only significant problem I'm having is that the economy sucks here! In Oklahoma, I was a CNA and, unofficially, if you had a CNA card, you could walk into damn near any nursing home in the state and they would bend over backwards to get you started as their employee.

(April 20, 2009 at 12:32 pm)Rizzo Wrote: Not too bad, but alot colder than Oklahoma. At least I don't have to deal with some of the Jesus inspired nut-jobs we get in Oklahoma. Anyone here heard of Sally Kern? Her church was about two miles from where I lived.

The only significant problem I'm having is that the economy sucks here! In Oklahoma, I was a CNA and, unofficially, if you had a CNA card, you could walk into damn near any nursing home in the state and they would bend over backwards to get you started as their employee.

You'll get used to it. I'm at the point in my life where I prefer the cold over heat.

And yeah, New England is a liberal Mecca and so you don't have to deal with billboards everywhere telling you you're going to hell, or churches making you feel like an outcast. Most churches in New England are Catholic, so they pretty and not too annoying.

(April 21, 2009 at 11:22 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: You'll get used to it. I'm at the point in my life where I prefer the cold over heat.

And yeah, New England is a liberal Mecca and so you don't have to deal with billboards everywhere telling you you're going to hell, or churches making you feel like an outcast. Most churches in New England are Catholic, so they pretty and not too annoying.

I thought I prefered too cold over too hot, but that was before I moved. I should have known better than to move this far north in January.

As for the churches, yeah, Catholic churches are usually pretty impressive. I remember going to Holy Family Catholic School and as much as I disliked the school, the church was pretty. Baptists in Oklahoma, though.... <i>*shudder*</i> can't really stand them too long.

(April 20, 2009 at 12:32 pm)Rizzo Wrote: Ah! Excellent question!

The key phrase in that is that there's something else out there outside of science <b>as we currently know it.</b>

At one time, how the seasons changed or how the stars lit up the night sky were outside of science as we knew it. Now we know more and have more advanced equipment to study it with.

Someday, we will probably be able to study what we can't now, provided we don't go ahead and finish off the human race before we get the chance.

Well, I think it is understandable that perhaps some things, in reality, in the future are actually impossible for science to grasp and understand...(or at least human science or possible for any other alien life forms to ever understand either)..

For example quantum theory may be too complex and weird ultimately to be uncracked and there is a lot to be known by it IF we could understand it but ultimately there are some things there that humans just never can figure out...

But these mysteries of the future that are definitely not true puzzles, buy mysteries because they are never to be unlocked - what makes you think that it would be anything supernatural? It could just be for instance, the quantum universe gets too complicated and weird to fully be understood (going with Quantum Theory as just an example).

Out of curiosity I am wondering what makes you think that these possible mysteries (that forever are mysteries, unlockable - if not by all lifeforms entirely then at least by us humans and all other life forms on earth) - what makes you think that these mysteries could be supernatural? Why would that be probable?

All that really springs to mind for me personally would be the hypothetical concept of infinite realities and dimensions so that everything exists somewhere - in some universe, whether supernatural or not - everything exists because the universe itself is infinite... the hypothetical idea of that.

Although I know of no evidence of this and that if these hypothetical alternative realities/dimensions, and certainly no evidence of their effect on this universe if they indeed exist because the universe is indeed 'infinite' so that 'everything exists somewhere'.

At the moment I believe that the universe finite I think - 'just' inconceivably gigantically enormous.

I don't really know much at all about cosmology though. And I'm not sure really if the concept of ultimate infinity necessarily implies that it means 'everything exists somewhere'?

Quote:I've stated that I <b>could</b> believe in something else out there that would fall under the catagory of supernatural. Things like spirits and ghosts and magic. No, I don't absolutly believe, but I don't absolutly disbelieve, either.

Well if you have no reason to believe or disbelieve then I assume disbelief is the default because you need reasons to believe something exists first.

But I assume you have reasons on both sides...? And you're not entirely sure which is most believable?

Or do you think that absence of evidence of these supernatural things you may believe in are on even footing and priority with absence of evidence against these supernatural things you may believe in.

My view, if that's the case, - would be that you need evidence to believe in these things first before you can possibly need or have any evidence against them.
Maybe you could call me a weak atheist?

Well if by weak atheist you mean that you are not absolutely 100% certain that God doesn't exist and you certainly don't claim to absolutely 'KNOW' he doesn't?

I myself - at least by my definition - do not think that opinions on other supernatural beliefs, or beliefs about the afterlife or spiritual beliefs or whatever - have any effect on the strength of the 'atheism'.

I think of your atheism as your stance on "God" as in a supernatural creator of the universe - your other supernatural beliefs don't have any effect on that per se.

E.G, by my definition at least: You can have many spiritual or supernatural beliefs but still not believe in a "God" (as I define God: a supernatural creator) so therefore still be an atheist and even be a very strong gnostic atheist that absolutely claims there isn't one...

And you can have the same spiritual/supernatural beliefs and also however, - not believe in God and instead be less sure, be agnostic and a 'weak' atheist.

Quote:Anyway, even if I believed in that, the world is just too chaotic to believe in any all powerful God.

Unless God is an alcoholic on LCD or something? Or he (/she/it) has severe psychosis lol.

Quote:N-E-way, thanx for the welcome!

Don't mention it, it's good to meet you.

EvF

Wow. It's been a while since I did the whole atheist forums thing. I forgot how they can make me feel both smart and stupid at the same time.

(April 22, 2009 at 11:37 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:

(April 20, 2009 at 12:32 pm)Rizzo Wrote: Ah! Excellent question!

The key phrase in that is that there's something else out there outside of science <b>as we currently know it.</b>

At one time, how the seasons changed or how the stars lit up the night sky were outside of science as we knew it. Now we know more and have more advanced equipment to study it with.

Someday, we will probably be able to study what we can't now, provided we don't go ahead and finish off the human race before we get the chance.

Well, I think it is understandable that perhaps some things, in reality, in the future are actually impossible for science to grasp and understand...(or at least human science or possible for any other alien life forms to ever understand either)..

For example quantum theory may be too complex and weird ultimately to be uncracked and there is a lot to be known by it IF we could understand it but ultimately there are some things there that humans just never can figure out...

But these mysteries of the future that are definitely not true puzzles, buy mysteries because they are never to be unlocked - what makes you think that it would be anything supernatural? It could just be for instance, the quantum universe gets too complicated and weird to fully be understood (going with Quantum Theory as just an example).

Out of curiosity I am wondering what makes you think that these possible mysteries (that forever are mysteries, unlockable - if not by all lifeforms entirely then at least by us humans and all other life forms on earth) - what makes you think that these mysteries could be supernatural? Why would that be probable?

All that really springs to mind for me personally would be the hypothetical concept of infinite realities and dimensions so that everything exists somewhere - in some universe, whether supernatural or not - everything exists because the universe itself is infinite... the hypothetical idea of that.

Although I know of no evidence of this and that if these hypothetical alternative realities/dimensions, and certainly no evidence of their effect on this universe if they indeed exist because the universe is indeed 'infinite' so that 'everything exists somewhere'.

At the moment I believe that the universe finite I think - 'just' inconceivably gigantically enormous.

I don't really know much at all about cosmology though. And I'm not sure really if the concept of ultimate infinity necessarily implies that it means 'everything exists somewhere'?

Yeah, that's part of it. Time and the universe are both infinate so, yeah, when you think of infinity, anything is possible. Heck, if you ask me, when I think about infinity, it's more likely some of these bizarre and crazy things actually DO exist.... even if I don't have proof. That's kinda the nature of infinity, ain't it?

Quote:Well if you have no reason to believe or disbelieve then I assume disbelief is the default because you need reasons to believe something exists first.

Yeah, it kinda comes down to that. Logic 101: you can't absolutly prove a negative. Really, it is kinda hard to absolutly prove that God/Magic/Spirits/Ghosts don't exist and if they don't, I don't think it can absolutly be proven that they don't.

Maybe it's my way of saying that I have an open mind, I dunno. I'm still figuring myself out quite a bit right now, so trying to figure out the nature of the universe will kinda be taking a back seat.

And maybe it's just hopeful thinking. Part of the reason I believe in supernatural (even though, granted, I don't have proof) is because I want to believe there's more. This world and my life (now) is wonderful and it hurts to think that in a few decades it will be over and nothing will be left of me. I want to believe there's some kind of after life, even though I don't have any proof of it.

Quote:Well if by weak atheist you mean that you are not absolutely 100% certain that God doesn't exist and you certainly don't claim to absolutely 'KNOW' he doesn't?

I myself - at least by my definition - do not think that opinions on other supernatural beliefs, or beliefs about the afterlife or spiritual beliefs or whatever - have any effect on the strength of the 'atheism'.

I think of your atheism as your stance on "God" as in a supernatural creator of the universe - your other supernatural beliefs don't have any effect on that per se.

Yeah, I think that's kinda the fine line I'm walking here. I don't believe in any supernatural creator of the universe (or, at very least, I can't believe in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim version of God), but other realms of supernatural.... yeah, they might exist. Might not. Can't say one way or the other.

E.G, by my definition at least: You can have many spiritual or supernatural beliefs but still not believe in a "God" (as I define God: a supernatural creator) so therefore still be an atheist and even be a very strong gnostic atheist that absolutely claims there isn't one...

Quote:Anyway, even if I believed in that, the world is just too chaotic to believe in any all powerful God.

Unless God is an alcoholic on LCD or something? Or he (/she/it) has severe psychosis lol.[/quote]

Actually, even there, I could believe in an all powerful God who created the universe and the laws of physics that govern it and simply left it to itself. However, if such a God did exist, does it really matter that he does? It would obviously not be a God that wants us to worship him or to write laws based on his holy book let alone kill people in his name.

(April 22, 2009 at 4:24 pm)Rizzo Wrote: Yeah, that's part of it. Time and the universe are both infinate so, yeah, when you think of infinity, anything is possible. Heck, if you ask me, when I think about infinity, it's more likely some of these bizarre and crazy things actually DO exist.... even if I don't have proof. That's kinda the nature of infinity, ain't it?

I don't know if there's any evidence that the universe is indeed infinitely infinite, or if it's finite - or if there's a disagreement.

But altogether, the way I understand the concept of infinity, an infinite existence, an infinite universe - is that indeed 'everything exists somewhere' because everything IS, it's infinity.

I do not know if this is necessarily a correct implication though and I do not know of any evidence that the universe is beyond any reasonable doubt definitely either infinite OR finite.

Quote:Yeah, it kinda comes down to that. Logic 101: you can't absolutly prove a negative. Really, it is kinda hard to absolutly prove that God/Magic/Spirits/Ghosts don't exist and if they don't, I don't think it can absolutly be proven that they don't.

indeed, you can't prove a negative. But I'm sure as you are aware, that is no reason to believe they DO exist (barring the whole infinity concept, I mean in this reality at least).

Because (once again, barring this whole infinity concept we are speaking of - that EVERYTHING exists 'somewhere') the fact you cannot disprove the Zeus, the Flying Spaghetti monster or Santa Claus doesn't add anything to the likelihood exists.

Quote:Maybe it's my way of saying that I have an open mind, I dunno. I'm still figuring myself out quite a bit right now, so trying to figure out the nature of the universe will kinda be taking a back seat.

figuring out is good. Open minded freethinking, scepticism and good old plain doubt often go hand in hand with inquisitiveness - a healthy curiosity - I say.

All good things in my opinion.

Quote:And maybe it's just hopeful thinking. Part of the reason I believe in supernatural (even though, granted, I don't have proof) is because I want to believe there's more. This world and my life (now) is wonderful and it hurts to think that in a few decades it will be over and nothing will be left of me. I want to believe there's some kind of after life, even though I don't have any proof of it.

I understand that you could want to believe this things...but wanting to believe them doesn't make it more likely of course....and...

...and what I'm wondering is - if you WANT to believe something I would have thought that would imply that you don't believe it - I mean you don't go around desiring things you already have, you desire things you don't have. So how could you WANT to believe if you already do?

Unless it's like fear of losing? You want to carry on believing what belief you still have perhaps...? You wouldn't want to lose a positive belief - you want to believe that what you do believe (however vaguely) is indeed, true?

Just wondering and making some suggestions/asking questions here. I am no means speaking for you Just my curiosity and interest I guess.

Quote:Yeah, I think that's kinda the fine line I'm walking here. I don't believe in any supernatural creator of the universe (or, at very least, I can't believe in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim version of God), but other realms of supernatural.... yeah, they might exist. Might not. Can't say one way or the other.

While I think that it could be argued that the theist Gods such as the 3 abrahamic ones are more absurd and have a lot more added to them to a desit God, along with all the intervening makes the theist God a lot more improbable...I still think a deist creator of the universe would be complex and improbable certainly... - and I certainly know of no evidence of a deist God either anyway.

Quote:Actually, even there, I could believe in an all powerful God who created the universe and the laws of physics that govern it and simply left it to itself. However, if such a God did exist, does it really matter that he does? It would obviously not be a God that wants us to worship him or to write laws based on his holy book let alone kill people in his name.

Indeed in practical terms I know of no real difference....it's just that in principle if we are living in a universe designed by a God then what would it be like if the universe WASN'T created...? Would it be MORE chaotic?! If this universe hypothetically speaking is a universe with a God in it.

And if (as I believe we are of course) living in a universe without a God then what would the universe be like if it was designed? Different I think - less of a mess if the God was 'Good' and not lazy I would think!

But that's in principle. In practice, in practical terms - it makes no real difference to our life whether it was set up by a "God" and then left alone entirely without any intervening whatsoever than if there simply isn't; and never was, a God.

And finally, I know of no evidence of a deist God.

If you don't particularly have a problem believing in a deist God then is it possible you could, at least potentially be a borderline deist? Maybe? Seen as you are not sure.

Or are you still more likely to be an atheist on that matter too - although you don't rule deism out?

Sorry if I'm vague. Or too vague at some points and much more specific at others! My writing style seems to change up a lot over the months, the weeks - even the days at times.

EvF

(April 20, 2009 at 5:03 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:

(April 18, 2009 at 6:31 am)Giff Wrote:

(April 18, 2009 at 4:44 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Welcome

You don't sound so excited Kyu. A "!" wouldn't hurt or a "?" if you want to create confusion

Er ... whut?

Kyu

Plain craziness Kyu, Plain craziness

(April 22, 2009 at 5:11 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Because (once again, barring this whole infinity concept we are speaking of - that EVERYTHING exists 'somewhere') the fact you cannot disprove the Zeus, the Flying Spaghetti monster or Santa Claus doesn't add anything to the likelihood exists.

There is truth to that. It's kinda a contradiction about who I am, really. Or maybe I'm just being forced to be really balanced, I dunno.

See, about ten years ago, I became an atheist. I was going through a really rough spot in my life and asked God for help and got no answer. I learned to be a sceptic about religion but that kinda carried through on many other things. The challenge for any atheists beliefs is "can you prove it?" or "Is there any emperical evidence for it?" You don't believe something just off of a "gut feeling" or because you want it.

However, a couple of years ago, I've had some conflict with that way of thinking and I've realized what gut feelings can have some validity. I don't want to be the girl who always talks about this, but I am transsexual. Early on, that's what transsexuality is: a gut feeling. I have a boys body and if I ask myself for proof that I'm supposed to be a girl, I can't come up with anything. Even now it's something I struggle with and the only good evidence I get is how much better my personality is when I'm on my estrogen pills. Before I started on that, I ask myself to "prove" that I'm a girl and I couldn't do it. But... I still had that feeling.

So, on one hand, my religious beliefs are based on scepticism and a demand for emperical evidence. However, with the direction I've taken in the discovery of my own identity, I've been forced to balance that by paying attention to those gut feelings.

Quote:

Quote:And maybe it's just hopeful thinking. Part of the reason I believe in supernatural (even though, granted, I don't have proof) is because I want to believe there's more. This world and my life (now) is wonderful and it hurts to think that in a few decades it will be over and nothing will be left of me. I want to believe there's some kind of after life, even though I don't have any proof of it.

I understand that you could want to believe this things...but wanting to believe them doesn't make it more likely of course....and...

...and what I'm wondering is - if you WANT to believe something I would have thought that would imply that you don't believe it - I mean you don't go around desiring things you already have, you desire things you don't have. So how could you WANT to believe if you already do?

You're probably right. Gun to my head, no, I don't believe in those things. I still want them to be true, though. Kinda like winning the lotto: I want it, but I don't expect it to happen.

Quote:Unless it's like fear of losing? You want to carry on believing what belief you still have perhaps...? You wouldn't want to lose a positive belief - you want to believe that what you do believe (however vaguely) is indeed, true?

I think you're on to something there. I think there is some fear of losing, but it's not about losing my beliefs. I fear losing.... everything.

I know I'm still fairly young at 30 (even though my 26 year old roommate never hesitates to call me an old lady) but I realize that someday.... I will die. I don't want that! I love this world and I love my life and the idea of losing all that really upsets me! In fact, I feel like I've only recently started really living my life instead of just enduring it and, therefore, I have to make up for lost time. The idea of an afterlife, I guess I just don't want everything to end for me.

Quote:While I think that it could be argued that the theist Gods such as the 3 abrahamic ones are more absurd and have a lot more added to them to a desit God, along with all the intervening makes the theist God a lot more improbable...I still think a deist creator of the universe would be complex and improbable certainly... - and I certainly know of no evidence of a deist God either anyway.

True. The Bible and Koran both help atheists because it gives us reasons to disbelieve. I can't prove a deist god doesn't exist but I can prove the Bible wrong. If I were in a society bathed in the Koran, I could probably prove it was wrong, too.

As you said, a deist God is much more likely to exist but, because of the nature of said god, it's kinda impossible to prove one way or the other. Either way, a deist god doesn't care what we think of it so I don't plan on spending too much time or energy trying to worship it.

Quote:

Quote:Actually, even there, I could believe in an all powerful God who created the universe and the laws of physics that govern it and simply left it to itself. However, if such a God did exist, does it really matter that he does? It would obviously not be a God that wants us to worship him or to write laws based on his holy book let alone kill people in his name.

Indeed in practical terms I know of no real difference....it's just that in principle if we are living in a universe designed by a God then what would it be like if the universe WASN'T created...? Would it be MORE chaotic?! If this universe hypothetically speaking is a universe with a God in it.

And if (as I believe we are of course) living in a universe without a God then what would the universe be like if it was designed? Different I think - less of a mess if the God was 'Good' and not lazy I would think!

But that's in principle. In practice, in practical terms - it makes no real difference to our life whether it was set up by a "God" and then left alone entirely without any intervening whatsoever than if there simply isn't; and never was, a God.

And finally, I know of no evidence of a deist God.

If you don't particularly have a problem believing in a deist God then is it possible you could, at least potentially be a borderline deist? Maybe? Seen as you are not sure.

Or are you still more likely to be an atheist on that matter too - although you don't rule deism out?

Sorry if I'm vague. Or too vague at some points and much more specific at others! My writing style seems to change up a lot over the months, the weeks - even the days at times.

EvF

Nah, I'm still an atheist. I want to believe in something else and I'll look for something to believe in, but when I find what other, more religious people call evidence, I can't find any solid evidence to support it.

I've heard some atheists who don't believe in a God and instead of looking for something to believe in, they look for reasons NOT to believe. Like I said, I want to believe and I will look for something to believe in, but I need some amount of proof. So far, no religion has been able to do that. The best I've found is in religions that are intentionally vague.