Hey everyone,

This is a repost of something I started on TTA back just before Christmas, but unfortunately the discussion kinda died and now it's so far down the list that I'm not sure it will resurface...
I spend quite a bit of time researching the topic though, so I felt like giving it a second shot on another board.

My opening post from TTA:

Quote:Hey everyone,

I considered calling this thread "the theater of healing" or something obscure along those lines, but I figured I would be a bit more direct:

Do religious rituals have a place in healthcare?

I would argue that they do to an extent. The reason I would argue they have a place along side traditional biomedical treatment is that rituals and - for religious people - religious rituals are pretty potent when it comes to unlocking the body's own medicinal cabinet through the placebo effect.

Obviously it is important to know the limits of placebo effects. You can't prayer-group yourself out of getting bitten by a snake, lacking insulin or having your appendix burst by an infection.
That being said the placebo effect can provide relief (fx by alleviating pain), have a therapeutic effect and enhance the effectiveness of pharmaceutical drugs.
They might also be able to stimulate and strengthen (?) immune responses, but I'm not sure how well established that is.

Of course more research is needed - partly because not everyone responds equally to placebo effects and partly to avoid nocebo effects - before you formally implement rituals (including religious ones) in healthcare practices, and you would need a special institution with medical professionals to vet rituals and the people performing them.

On another note the ritually induced placebo effect actually lends some credibility to the effectiveness of religious healing rituals historically and today...

Thoughts? Comments? Outbursts?

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...healthcare

Well, there are studies that examine the "healing power of prayer" in a medical setting. In triple-blind, randomized controlled trials they determined that prayer helped heal, had no impact, or made it worse. So... what you'd expect from something that doesn't do anything, I guess. But the study does outline the reasons that prayer might be beneficial, and why it may have been beneficial for those it benefited:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/

But really, it has a place for those who thinks it should have a place. It's that simple. I have a plethora of health problems, and I see so many people around me in hospital waiting rooms clutching a rosary or a cross. If you're, say, Christian, then of course God will be an important part of your life when you combat a serious illness. As long as they're not neglecting legitimate medical treatment in favor of a prayer circle, then they can do whatever they want to feel at peace with themselves.

How well did this go over ??

Humoring the thought, why would we need to vet rituals or the people performing them, and how?  If we're going to legitimize witchdoctory, how could we vet that?  Make sure the person is a legitimate shaman? Is that a requirement for the "treatment" to work?

WTF is all of that ritual hand washing about? Cleanliness is next to godliness? Screw that. Wipe your butt, go and cut!

works for me . . . . .

(January 3, 2017 at 12:39 pm)Aegon Wrote: Well, there are studies that examine the "healing power of prayer" in a medical setting. In triple-blind, randomized controlled trials they determined that prayer helped heal, had no impact, or made it worse. So... what you'd expect from something that doesn't do anything, I guess. But the study does outline the reasons that prayer might be beneficial, and why it may have been beneficial for those it benefited:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/

While they deal a bit with placebo effects in the section "Mechanisms of healing through prayer" pretty much all of the studies they cite are double-blind RCTs with remote intercessory prayer. Great for testing whether supernatural stuff works, not so good when it comes to the placebo effect - which isen't really dealt with beyond the brief section I mentioned.

Here's what they said about the placebo response btw:

"Clinically significant treatment gains have been observed with placebo in numerous disorders, including anxiety, depression, schizophrenia, obsessive-compulsive disorder, tardive dyskinesia, ischemic heart disease, cardiac failure, Parkinson's disease and even cancer, among a host of other conditions.[14–20] Relevant to the context of prayer and healing, the placebo response is influenced by personality traits and behaviors such as optimism,[21,22] response expectancy,[23] motivational concordance (i.e., the degree to which the behavioral rituals of the therapy are congruent with the motivational system of the subject)[24] and degree of engagement with a ritual.[25]"

Quote:But really, it has a place for those who thinks it should have a place. It's that simple. I have a plethora of health problems, and I see so many people around me in hospital waiting rooms clutching a rosary or a cross. If you're, say, Christian, then of course God will be an important part of your life when you combat a serious illness. As long as they're not neglecting legitimate medical treatment in favor of a prayer circle, then they can do whatever they want to feel at peace with themselves.

Well, my idea with this thread is to argue that interventions that cause placebo effects can be/become legitimate medical treatments. Some rituals - including religious ones - can on that basis be a potent part of treatment for some conditions.

Quote:Moderator Notice

Release and bump.

That sounds vaguely erotic, S-C.

Quote:Do religious rituals have a place in healthcare?

No.  Fuck all religitards.

(January 3, 2017 at 7:55 pm)Gaest Wrote: Well, my idea with this thread is to argue that interventions that cause placebo effects can be/become legitimate medical treatments. Some rituals - including religious ones - can on that basis be a potent part of treatment for some conditions.

bold mine

There is no direct cause/effect that is measurable and repeatable from person to person. It will never be considered legitimate medicine. I find the thought offensive.