(January 18, 2017 at 8:32 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Would you deny that Christianity has a moral imperative?

Is that a rooster I hear crowing?

If you proclaim yourself Christian, I expect you to adhere to its tenets. If you do not, how important, how imperative, are those tenets?

Let's go back to Square One: What do you think are the tenets of atheism?

We have a problem here, Thump. Which tenet is he supposed to adhere to? The one where Jesus tells his disciple put away your sword. They who live by the sword will die by the sword. Or the one where he tells his disciple take your sword. If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one?

They say atheists need moral absolutes, but the bible certainly does not fulfill that need.

Anything a Christian wants to do, he can find scripture to support it.

(January 18, 2017 at 9:13 pm)Pulse Wrote: That's because we have laws in this world that are mostly based on the Ten Commandments which are reflected in most religions and we thus no longer act like barbarians.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Treaty of Tripoli. Signed under President Washington, ratified under President Adams.

Article 11:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation

(January 18, 2017 at 9:16 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(January 18, 2017 at 9:03 pm)Pulse Wrote: You make it sound like humans and human society are not part of the Universe.

And from my research on Jones, I couldn't find any religious affiliation for him accept that he saw himself as a communist, which has been the antithesis of any religion; "Jones purported to establish Jonestown as a benevolent model communist community stating, "I believe we're the purest communists there are." In that regard, like the restrictive emigration policies of the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and other communist states, Jones did not permit members to leave Jonestown.

Straight from wiki, good job. But let's read the whole thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#..._operation

Yep, no religion there.

Hmm hard to find any Christianity there when he believed in Translation wherein he and his followers would all die together and move to another planet and live blissfully. Possible a pagan belief of some sort.

So if it's something you wouldn't do, it's not Christianity? Okay then. If it's something I wouldn't do, it's not atheism. Your move.

(January 18, 2017 at 9:33 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(January 18, 2017 at 9:13 pm)Pulse Wrote: That's because we have laws in this world that are mostly based on the Ten Commandments which are reflected in most religions and we thus no longer act like barbarians.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Treaty of Tripoli. Signed under President Washington, ratified under President Adams.

Article 11:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation

Yes we believe the Ten Commandments were properly formulated after the creation of Man. At man's creation The Ten Commandments were programmed into man's heart through 

what we know as The Voice of Conscience. Eventually these became codified in various religions. Throughout history, the Ten Commandments have been used as a framework for 

expounding all of our ethical responsibilities. (Dr Art Lindsley) Certain religions adhered to it more than others, but Commandments like Do not kill, Do not steal, do not commit Adultery were basically widespread. Sure today's Godless laws are becoming

more and more arbitrary and man made, but historically this was not so.

And  we cannot say that Conscience or Consciousness is not God-given and just purely materialistic and results from meaningless random electron movements in our brain, which is 

the result of random meaningless processes that manufactured the brain. That's why religion is so widespread, Materialisitc Atheism is counter intuitive.

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(January 18, 2017 at 9:15 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Maybe in the course of throwing out every apologist argument we've heard umpteen times before he'll break down and have an awakening of faith in mankind and doubt the malarky the bible pitches.


Hey, I said maybe.  If an algorithm can figure out how to win in checkers maybe even someone who has been wired to see and promote god will learn.

That algorithm was programmed by Intelligent Designers called scientists, correct?

(January 18, 2017 at 9:49 pm)Pulse Wrote:

(January 18, 2017 at 9:15 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Maybe in the course of throwing out every apologist argument we've heard umpteen times before he'll break down and have an awakening of faith in mankind and doubt the malarky the bible pitches.


Hey, I said maybe.  If an algorithm can figure out how to win in checkers maybe even someone who has been wired to see and promote god will learn.

That algorithm was programmed by Intelligent Designers called scientists, correct?

Are you trying to argue that the scientists designed the checkers playing neural nets, because that's clearly wrong. The neural nets themselves evolved by a dumb, unintelligent process. End of story. You're not even arguing against the substance of the matter. The computers the algorithm ran on were designed by humans, does that mean the neural nets were? No, it does not. There is a big difference between being a proximal cause of the neural nets' behavior and being a tertiary, incidental cause. Can you distinguish between near and far? The scientists did not design the behavior of the neural nets.

Quote: Yes we believe the Ten Commandments were properly formulated after the creation of Man.

And you expect to be taken seriously, huh?

(January 18, 2017 at 5:04 am)Pulse Wrote: I wanted to link to the cosmology article but as per rules I couldn't, but an open letter signed by 33 top Scientists in New Scientist, May Issue 2004, states the Big Bang is flawed and only popular due to funding. Just Google Big Bang Busted by 33 Top Scientists.

And regarding your statements that Atheism has been misunderstood by me, I can assure you Atheism affects all aspects of our lives and can be discussed from various angles.

I'm sorry, but that open letter was initially published in 2004 and in nearly 13 years has not generated any controversy. So, a minority of guys agreed that they thought the theory was wrong. Whoopee. There are now (and always will be) competing theories. If any of them ever produce a better model of our current universe then, and only then, will the BBT get "debunked."

You're cherry picking outdated science that appears to support your beliefs. That is, at best, intellectually dishonest. Instead, why don't you actually study the field. If you can find a gaping hole in the theory you can earn yourself a Nobel Prize by overturning the current and most robust theory in cosmology.

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(January 18, 2017 at 5:45 am)Pulse Wrote: Well when you have an EXTREMELY rare event of an actual Neurosurgeon having an NDE and changing his entire life because of his new belief system, and that still hasn't convinced you there's something to all this, then yeah, we agree to disagree.

He had an experience while in an altered state of consciousness. So what? I got in a fist fight with a guy who didn't exist once, complete with psychosomatic bruises thanks to the synthetic mescaline I was tripping on at the time. The human mind is a strange place at the best of time. Put it under stress and it can do some really weird shit.

Quote:What do you think are the tenets of atheism?

#1. Acknowledgement of Reality


...I think that list just about covers all of them

(January 18, 2017 at 8:09 am)AceBoogie Wrote: This whole "science can't explain everything" attitude kills me. "Science can't explain everything, therefore god" - is basically the argument.

The best part is that science has explained more in the last 100 years than religion has managed in the last 100,000.