Hi everyone. I am an active member of a Lutheran Church in Poland. I attend every week and I help out there. Although I pretty much accept religion, I sometimes question things (who doesn't). A minister at my church constantly preaches about Near Death Experiences, and how they are a preview of afterlife. I actually called him up on his claim, telling him that although I believe in God and an afterlife, I do not simply believe that NDEs have anything to do with an afterlife. I told him about the recent Sam Parnia study which failed, and I told him that there was no reason to think that they are anything else than the brain acting up when it is not functioning at a normal capacity. A few of the church members then talked about how they are real, and they sent me a variety of links to try to prove it.
Long story short, I read quite a few (maybe 50 experiences).
Most of them seemed like they could be the product of the brain. However there were about 10-20 where the person claimed that in their experience, that Jesus told them that for example, their father would leave their mother and sure enough, it did happen. In one Jesus told a man he would have a son in a few years. Three years to the day of the experience, he had a son born. Another one a girl met her supposed uncle, who she apparently never heard of, and gave her facts about himself and her aunt who she later verified as true. Many of them have some ESP content in there, where the person develops psychic ability or something. There is a really graphic one where a guy goes to hell and hears God say "I have brought you to hell only so you can tell people it is real. Hell is a real place". My question I guess is, although most of these experiences are not all necessarily true, you will get a few that sound so amazing, or hard to dismiss as simple randomness or luck. Same with some Out of Body experiences, where patients report going to other rooms and other cities, verifying things that actually occurred.
Here is the most compelling one in my opinion: 

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/wi.../lynn.html

So, what would you atheists say about some of these amazing and difficult to explain NDEs? Some of them are just too difficult to explain. Some of them seem TOO graphic or coincidental for a brain that is dying to be able to come up with something like that. The psychic abilities and ESP are just out of this world.

the near-death.com website has so many of them and I doubt they can all be made up.

That question comes up a lot here. If you do a search you can find some. But maybe someone will want to discuss it with you again.

I'll just say the real issue is with terminology. A near death experience isn't about what happens when you're dead, only nearly so. Nearly dead is still alive. In dreams lots of fantastic things happen. Under the extreme conditions of near death, the brain might well give rise to surprising experiences. They just don't tell you about anything 'beyond the grave', just about what your brain under duress is capable of.

But of course you probably won't want to drop it just like that. Good luck.

(February 9, 2017 at 2:23 am)Whateverist Wrote: That question comes up a lot here.  If you do a search you can find some.  But maybe someone will want to discuss it with you again.

I'll just say the real issue is with terminology.  A near death experience isn't about what happens when you're dead, only nearly so.  Nearly dead is still alive.  In dreams lots of fantastic things happen.  Under the extreme conditions of near death, the brain might well give rise to surprising experiences.  They just don't tell you about anything 'beyond the grave', just about what your brain under duress is capable of.

But of course you probably won't want to drop it just like that.  Good luck.

"Nearly dead is still alive.  In dreams lots of fantastic things happen. "
that is a good way of putting it. Although I am still not 100% sure to make of them, I think that hearing the logic from some atheist like yourself and others on this site may eventually lead me to questioning my faith.

Well unless you want to do that perhaps you should avoid it? Will you approach it as a test of will, of whether you can hold on tight no matter what? Or will you be looking objectively to see what conflicts arise with an eye to finding out whether what you believe on faith is deserved?

(February 9, 2017 at 2:36 am)Whateverist Wrote: Well unless you want to do that perhaps you should avoid it?  Will you approach it as a test of will, of whether you can hold on tight no matter what?  Or will you be looking objectively to see what conflicts arise with an eye to finding out whether what you believe on faith is deserved?

I'm just looking for facts. I want to know the truth to be honest.

This is familiar...

haha ...welcome matey!

You want the truth ...here it is .... 1+1=2
Everything else is just opinion!
Science tries to come close to the truth via the scientific method ...
As far as NDE's go, let me just say that NDE, consciousness outside the body (spirit), soul, afterlife, are all a finely balanced deck of cards with no solid foundation.

Go to the converts section and read some interesting experiences from some of our new recently converted members.

Did you really want the truth? Or God's truth? God's truth is in the bible...look no further... because it's all downhill from there.

Near-death testimonials are intrinsically anecdotal-- they are stories told by people.  I think there are enough of these stories that we must accept the people had some kind of experience that felt very meaningful to them.  The question is whether they have the capacity to determine the true nature of their experiences.

Whether there's a God or not, or an afterlife or not, it seems unlikely that an almost-dead person has the mental capacity to really know what is causing his/her experiences.  And no number of people having had that experience, nor the weight of any church nor academic authority, can make true what cannot be demonstrated to be true.

---

(February 9, 2017 at 2:26 am)Mirek-Polska Wrote: "Nearly dead is still alive.  In dreams lots of fantastic things happen. "
that is a good way of putting it. Although I am still not 100% sure to make of them, I think that hearing the logic from some atheist like yourself and others on this site may eventually lead me to questioning my faith.

I don't think any true religious person would put himself at odds with the truth-- reality if it's made by God is as it should be, and no fairy tales nor any amount of testimonials are a good substitute for the truth as it can be revealed through a rational inquiry and a careful consideration of evidence.

Welcome, Mirek. You don't mind if I call you Mirek, do you?

Stories are claims. Stories are anecdotes. Stories grow with the retelling. People connect events with meaning that are otherwise unconnected.

I'd have to know that the stories are accurate before I could begin to comment on whether there's more going on than vivid dreams, intuition, brain stress, and embellishment.

(February 9, 2017 at 2:06 am)Mirek-Polska Wrote: So, what would you atheists say about some of these amazing and difficult to explain NDEs? Some of them are just too difficult to explain.

I'd say they were difficult to explain. Not impossible. But I'm not going to waste time trying to do that when we don't have enough information. The rational position is to withhold belief until the claims are demonstrated. I'll do that.

(February 9, 2017 at 2:06 am)Mirek-Polska Wrote: Some of them seem TOO graphic or coincidental for a brain that is dying to be able to come up with something like that.

How do you know how a dying brain reacts in those circumstance? Not to mention that they weren't actually dying; otherwise they would be damaged upon resuscitation, or dead completely.

(February 9, 2017 at 2:06 am)Mirek-Polska Wrote: The psychic abilities and ESP are just out of this world.

Then they are not of this world. That was easy.

(February 9, 2017 at 2:06 am)Mirek-Polska Wrote: the near-death.com website has so many of them and I doubt they can all be made up.

Let's be generous and say that 5% of the stories are genuine. How could we set about finding out which is which?