Question about Near Death Experiences

[Angrboda]

Here's an interesting article I found while browsing Wikipedia.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/keit...HNDEs.html

Unfulfilled Predictions: Psychic Inability

Despite the contributions of serious neuroscientists, psychologists, sociologists, and anthropologists to the field, 'near-death studies' is rife with wildly irresponsible claims about NDErs gaining psychic abilities, healing powers, and accurate prophetic visions of the future after their NDEs. These unsubstantiated assertions recall those of crop circle researchers who have 'discovered' that the wheat found in crop circles has been genetically altered. Phyllis Atwater, for example, claims that NDErs look younger after NDEs when before and after pictures are compared and claims that NDErs' 'energy fields' interfere with electronic devices like watches and microphones (though apparently not with the much more sensitive computers NDErs use).

Sadly, the most prominent representatives of the field—Raymond Moody, Kenneth Ring, Melvin Morse, Phyllis Atwater, and Margot Grey—have made all sorts of unsubstantiated and fanciful claims about NDErs' paranormal abilities. While this alone seriously damages the credibility of their own work and mars near-death studies as a whole, the damage is exacerbated by wild New Age speculations on the meaning of the NDE from the very same researchers. Given such fringe claims, it should be no surprise that the mainstream medical community has viewed research into the near-death experience with suspicion.

In Heading Toward Omega, for instance, Ring claimed that many of his NDErs had 'prophetic visions' of the future of humanity, including earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, marked climate change, economic collapse, and humanity on the verge of nuclear annihilation. 'Massive upheavals' were to start in the 1980s and end with world peace just after the dawn of the new millennium (Fox 40-41).

But despite repeated assertions of widespread and even quite frequent paranormal abilities manifesting after NDEs (reported by NDErs themselves and endorsed by many near-death researchers), not a single experiencer, so far as I am aware, has ever volunteered for a controlled experiment to test their alleged psychic powers. Given that such a demonstration would easily validate their claims, one simple question begs for an answer: Why not?

Cases where NDErs' predictions have failed to come to pass suggest that experiencers have not attempted to demonstrate their psychic powers experimentally because they have no powers to demonstrate. Apparently NDErs' predictions are no different than those of other modern-day prophets—either vague enough to cover almost any event, or specific but unfulfilled....

For example:

(1) Dannion Brinkley's self-reported psychic abilities after his NDE are an excellent example of unfulfilled predictions. After lightning struck the telephone line he was using in 1975, he was thrown across the room, laying on the floor looking up. His searing pain was replaced with a feeling of peace and he found himself looking down on his body until paramedics loaded him onto an ambulance. Next he reported seeing a tunnel forming in the ambulance which came to him and engulfed him while he heard rhythmic chiming. He noticed a light ahead and rapidly approached it until it surrounded him. A silver form emerged which he identifies as an empathetic 'being of light' emitting all the colors of a rainbow. The being engulfed him, causing him to review the events of his life. Next they both 'flew' into a city of crystalline cathedrals where Brinkley arrived at a 'cathedral of knowledge.' His guide disappeared, only to be replaced by 13 others behind a podium when he sat down on a bench. As each being approached him, a 'box' appeared on its chest which 'zoomed' out toward his face showing a 'television picture' of a future world event. Brinkley was restored to normal consciousness in the morgue just shy of half-an-hour since he was struck by lightning (Brinkley and Perry 4-31). He also claims to have gained spectacular psychic abilities since his NDE, but these have never been tested in any controlled experimental setting.

The prophetic visions shown to Brinkley during his NDE were often given dates in his best-selling Saved by the Light. They included visions of an Israeli settlement spreading into Jordan until Jordan was replaced by a new country (34). This was to be followed by a war between Israel and an alliance of Russia and a "Chinese-and-Arab consortium" over 'some incident' in Jerusalem (35). An alliance between Saudi Arabia, Syria, and China was to be made in 1992 to destroy the American economy, while Saudis were to give money to North Korea in order to destabilize Asian markets (35). By 1993 Iran and Iraq were predicted to have both chemical and nuclear weapons, including an Iranian submarine with nuclear missiles on a religious mission to stop the shipment of oil from the Middle East (41).

Brinkley claims to have foreseen the Chernobyl incident in 1986 and the 1991 Gulf War during his NDE, but these events occurred well before the publication of his book. Chernobyl was supposed to be followed by another nuclear accident in 1995 which contaminated a northern sea to the point that ships would not travel through it (36-37).

He also saw "border disputes and heavy fighting between Soviet and Chinese armies" over a railroad ultimately taken by the Chinese. The Chinese then invaded the Soviet Union and took over half of the USSR, including Siberian oil fields (39). Brinkley confesses that when he had these visions in 1975, he didn't know that the Soviet Union would fall.

The collapse of the world economy "by the turn of the century" resulting in "feudalism and strife" was also predicted (39). The government closing of banks in the 1990s was to be followed by "the bankruptcy of America by the year 2000" (40). America would cease to be a superpower "sometime before the end of the century" due to two horrific earthquakes, perhaps near some body of water. Rebuilding after the quakes was to weaken the economy to the point that starving Americans waited in long lines for food, again, before 2000 (40).

Brinkley envisioned a terrorist attack on France prior to 2000 where a chemical was to be released into a French city's water supply, killing thousands, in response to the French publication of "a book that infuriates the Arab world" (41).

Brinkley also saw the collapse of democracy and its replacement with a fundamentalist government in Egypt in 1997 (41). In his final visions he saw people in towns all over the world eating their dead out of desperation, "weeping as they cooked human meat" (42). Meanwhile, wars in Central America and South America broke out, leading to the formation of socialist governments in all of the countries of this region before 2000. As a result, millions of refugees crossed the American border, forcing the US government to deploy troops to the border to push the refugees back across the Rio Grande, destroying the economy of Mexico (45). Again, all of this (and more) was predicted to happen before 2000.

Elaborate as these visions are, none of the events predicted to occur after Saved by the Light was published in 1994 have come to pass. The prophetic visions Brinkley gained during his NDE appear to be no different than those of any other run-of-the-mill prophet. Even the Fenwicks comment that while "pre-publication happenings came into Dannion's head with pinpoint accuracy," "those events due to take place after 1994 are foretold with less precision" (Fenwick and Fenwick 167). Brinkley did tend to be vague in places—omitting dates or using phrases like "some incident" or "sometime before the end of the century." But his predictions were precise enough for us to recognize not only that they never came to pass when he predicted they would, but that nothing even close to those events came to pass.

It would not be surprising for NDErs to come back from 'the other side' with vague or false predictions if near-death experiences are really a particular kind of brain-generated hallucination. But if NDEs were literally journeys of one's soul or double into 'the next world,' it would be surprising for denizens of that realm to offer false information. In Brinkley's case particularly, it would be surprising for otherworldly beings to provide him with accurate predictions about future events occurring before the publication of his book, but false predictions about future events occurring after the book is published. Dare I suggest that Brinkley just might have exaggerated claims about the accuracy of his pre-publication predictions?

[The Valkyrie]

NDEs?

Stories to make money: See the kid who claimed to visit heaven, wrote a book, and then admitted he lied thanks to his dad.

Dreams.

Visions induced by massive chemical releases by a brain in trauma.

[Mirek-Polska]

So, what would you atheists say about some of these amazing and difficult to explain NDEs? Some of them are just too difficult to explain.

I'd say they were difficult to explain. Not impossible. But I'm not going to waste time trying to do that when we don't have enough information. The rational position is to withhold belief until the claims are demonstrated. I'll do that.

Some of them seem TOO graphic or coincidental for a brain that is dying to be able to come up with something like that.

How do you know how a dying brain reacts in those circumstance? Not to mention that they weren't actually dying; otherwise they would be damaged upon resuscitation, or dead completely.

The psychic abilities and ESP are just out of this world.

Then they are not of this world. That was easy.

the near-death.com website has so many of them and I doubt they can all be made up.

Let's be generous and say that 5% of the stories are genuine. How could we set about finding out which is which?

Interesting, there is one case (Howard Storm) where he believes he saw hell, and converts from an atheist to a reverend. I doubt he was lying because that was such a dramatic change. What are the odds in your opinion that some of the stories on near-death.com were made up and fabricated?

---

Here's an interesting article I found while browsing Wikipedia.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/keit...HNDEs.html

Unfulfilled Predictions: Psychic Inability

Despite the contributions of serious neuroscientists, psychologists, sociologists, and anthropologists to the field, 'near-death studies' is rife with wildly irresponsible claims about NDErs gaining psychic abilities, healing powers, and accurate prophetic visions of the future after their NDEs. These unsubstantiated assertions recall those of crop circle researchers who have 'discovered' that the wheat found in crop circles has been genetically altered. Phyllis Atwater, for example, claims that NDErs look younger after NDEs when before and after pictures are compared and claims that NDErs' 'energy fields' interfere with electronic devices like watches and microphones (though apparently not with the much more sensitive computers NDErs use).

Sadly, the most prominent representatives of the field—Raymond Moody, Kenneth Ring, Melvin Morse, Phyllis Atwater, and Margot Grey—have made all sorts of unsubstantiated and fanciful claims about NDErs' paranormal abilities. While this alone seriously damages the credibility of their own work and mars near-death studies as a whole, the damage is exacerbated by wild New Age speculations on the meaning of the NDE from the very same researchers. Given such fringe claims, it should be no surprise that the mainstream medical community has viewed research into the near-death experience with suspicion.

In Heading Toward Omega, for instance, Ring claimed that many of his NDErs had 'prophetic visions' of the future of humanity, including earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, marked climate change, economic collapse, and humanity on the verge of nuclear annihilation. 'Massive upheavals' were to start in the 1980s and end with world peace just after the dawn of the new millennium (Fox 40-41).

But despite repeated assertions of widespread and even quite frequent paranormal abilities manifesting after NDEs (reported by NDErs themselves and endorsed by many near-death researchers), not a single experiencer, so far as I am aware, has ever volunteered for a controlled experiment to test their alleged psychic powers. Given that such a demonstration would easily validate their claims, one simple question begs for an answer: Why not?

Cases where NDErs' predictions have failed to come to pass suggest that experiencers have not attempted to demonstrate their psychic powers experimentally because they have no powers to demonstrate. Apparently NDErs' predictions are no different than those of other modern-day prophets—either vague enough to cover almost any event, or specific but unfulfilled....

For example:

(1) Dannion Brinkley's self-reported psychic abilities after his NDE are an excellent example of unfulfilled predictions. After lightning struck the telephone line he was using in 1975, he was thrown across the room, laying on the floor looking up. His searing pain was replaced with a feeling of peace and he found himself looking down on his body until paramedics loaded him onto an ambulance. Next he reported seeing a tunnel forming in the ambulance which came to him and engulfed him while he heard rhythmic chiming. He noticed a light ahead and rapidly approached it until it surrounded him. A silver form emerged which he identifies as an empathetic 'being of light' emitting all the colors of a rainbow. The being engulfed him, causing him to review the events of his life. Next they both 'flew' into a city of crystalline cathedrals where Brinkley arrived at a 'cathedral of knowledge.' His guide disappeared, only to be replaced by 13 others behind a podium when he sat down on a bench. As each being approached him, a 'box' appeared on its chest which 'zoomed' out toward his face showing a 'television picture' of a future world event. Brinkley was restored to normal consciousness in the morgue just shy of half-an-hour since he was struck by lightning (Brinkley and Perry 4-31). He also claims to have gained spectacular psychic abilities since his NDE, but these have never been tested in any controlled experimental setting.

The prophetic visions shown to Brinkley during his NDE were often given dates in his best-selling Saved by the Light. They included visions of an Israeli settlement spreading into Jordan until Jordan was replaced by a new country (34). This was to be followed by a war between Israel and an alliance of Russia and a "Chinese-and-Arab consortium" over 'some incident' in Jerusalem (35). An alliance between Saudi Arabia, Syria, and China was to be made in 1992 to destroy the American economy, while Saudis were to give money to North Korea in order to destabilize Asian markets (35). By 1993 Iran and Iraq were predicted to have both chemical and nuclear weapons, including an Iranian submarine with nuclear missiles on a religious mission to stop the shipment of oil from the Middle East (41).

Brinkley claims to have foreseen the Chernobyl incident in 1986 and the 1991 Gulf War during his NDE, but these events occurred well before the publication of his book. Chernobyl was supposed to be followed by another nuclear accident in 1995 which contaminated a northern sea to the point that ships would not travel through it (36-37).

He also saw "border disputes and heavy fighting between Soviet and Chinese armies" over a railroad ultimately taken by the Chinese. The Chinese then invaded the Soviet Union and took over half of the USSR, including Siberian oil fields (39). Brinkley confesses that when he had these visions in 1975, he didn't know that the Soviet Union would fall.

The collapse of the world economy "by the turn of the century" resulting in "feudalism and strife" was also predicted (39). The government closing of banks in the 1990s was to be followed by "the bankruptcy of America by the year 2000" (40). America would cease to be a superpower "sometime before the end of the century" due to two horrific earthquakes, perhaps near some body of water. Rebuilding after the quakes was to weaken the economy to the point that starving Americans waited in long lines for food, again, before 2000 (40).

Brinkley envisioned a terrorist attack on France prior to 2000 where a chemical was to be released into a French city's water supply, killing thousands, in response to the French publication of "a book that infuriates the Arab world" (41).

Brinkley also saw the collapse of democracy and its replacement with a fundamentalist government in Egypt in 1997 (41). In his final visions he saw people in towns all over the world eating their dead out of desperation, "weeping as they cooked human meat" (42). Meanwhile, wars in Central America and South America broke out, leading to the formation of socialist governments in all of the countries of this region before 2000. As a result, millions of refugees crossed the American border, forcing the US government to deploy troops to the border to push the refugees back across the Rio Grande, destroying the economy of Mexico (45). Again, all of this (and more) was predicted to happen before 2000.

Elaborate as these visions are, none of the events predicted to occur after Saved by the Light was published in 1994 have come to pass. The prophetic visions Brinkley gained during his NDE appear to be no different than those of any other run-of-the-mill prophet. Even the Fenwicks comment that while "pre-publication happenings came into Dannion's head with pinpoint accuracy," "those events due to take place after 1994 are foretold with less precision" (Fenwick and Fenwick 167). Brinkley did tend to be vague in places—omitting dates or using phrases like "some incident" or "sometime before the end of the century." But his predictions were precise enough for us to recognize not only that they never came to pass when he predicted they would, but that nothing even close to those events came to pass.

It would not be surprising for NDErs to come back from 'the other side' with vague or false predictions if near-death experiences are really a particular kind of brain-generated hallucination. But if NDEs were literally journeys of one's soul or double into 'the next world,' it would be surprising for denizens of that realm to offer false information. In Brinkley's case particularly, it would be surprising for otherworldly beings to provide him with accurate predictions about future events occurring before the publication of his book, but false predictions about future events occurring after the book is published. Dare I suggest that Brinkley just might have exaggerated claims about the accuracy of his pre-publication predictions?

Thanks for your logical response. I think what you said makes sense. I only find it slightly puzzling as to why people who have had experiences of some kind would lie or embellish them, but then there must be a reason as to why non of these experiences have ever been proven.

[The Valkyrie]

I'd say they were difficult to explain. Not impossible. But I'm not going to waste time trying to do that when we don't have enough information. The rational position is to withhold belief until the claims are demonstrated. I'll do that.


How do you know how a dying brain reacts in those circumstance? Not to mention that they weren't actually dying; otherwise they would be damaged upon resuscitation, or dead completely.


Then they are not of this world. That was easy.


Let's be generous and say that 5% of the stories are genuine. How could we set about finding out which is which?

Interesting, there is one case (Howard Storm) where he believes he saw hell, and converts from an atheist to a reverend. I doubt he was lying because that was such a dramatic change. What are the odds in your opinion that some of the stories on near-death.com were made up and fabricated?

Kirk Cameron claims to have been an atheist and then makes outrageous claims of what he thought when he was an "atheist".  None of which ANY atheist I know or have encountered have ever thought.

Ex "atheists", like ex smokers, are notorious for the length they'll go to in an attempt to distance themselves from their former habits.  And when they become Christian "again" they know there's a huge amount of money to be made.

Have you ever noticed, also, that NDEs have a cultural bias?  If you're brought up in the West, where Christianity dominates, you'll have a vision of the Abrahamic/Christian heaven or hell, not the Hindu afterlife.  And the reverse is true for people who live in other parts of the world where another religion is dominant, often even when that person is not religious at all.

[Mirek-Polska]

Interesting, there is one case (Howard Storm) where he believes he saw hell, and converts from an atheist to a reverend. I doubt he was lying because that was such a dramatic change. What are the odds in your opinion that some of the stories on near-death.com were made up and fabricated?

Kirk Cameron claims to have been an atheist and then makes outrageous claims of what he thought when he was an "atheist".  None of which ANY atheist I know or have encountered have ever thought.

Ex "atheists", like ex smokers, are notorious for the length they'll go to in an attempt to distance themselves from their former habits.  And when they become Christian "again" they know there's a huge amount of money to be made.

Have you ever noticed, also, that NDEs have a cultural bias?  If you're brought up in the West, where Christianity dominates, you'll have a vision of the Abrahamic/Christian heaven or hell, not the Hindu afterlife.  And the reverse is true for people who live in other parts of the world where another religion is dominant, often even when that person is not religious at all.

"Have you ever noticed, also, that NDEs have a cultural bias?  If you're brought up in the West, where Christianity dominates, you'll have a vision of the Abrahamic/Christian heaven or hell, not the Hindu afterlife.  And the reverse is true for people who live in other parts of the world where another religion is dominant, often even when that person is not religious at all."

That is a very compelling point. I tried to search for other NDEs but I could not find any from different cultures. On youtube, the majority of them are Christian

[Cyberman]

Interesting, there is one case (Howard Storm) where he believes he saw hell, and converts from an atheist to a reverend. I doubt he was lying because that was such a dramatic change. What are the odds in your opinion that some of the stories on near-death.com were made up and fabricated?

100%, until they are demonstrated to be genuine. All you have to go on is the person's testimony and you have no way to evaluate it besides opinion. I'm not convinced by how dramatic a story is; I've written elsewhere about my actual death experience. It's way more dramatic than Storm's, I'm sure you'll agree; that must make it more true than his, yes? Do you doubt that I'm lying?

[Angrboda]

Thanks for your logical response. I think what you said makes sense. I only find it slightly puzzling as to why people who have had experiences of some kind would lie or embellish them, but then there must be a reason as to why non of these experiences have ever been proven.

NDEs, because of their context and because of the inherent nature of the experience, are highly charged emotional experiences. People respond to strong emotional stimuli in various ways, not all of them productive. For what it's worth, I don't think that the majority of them intentionally embellish their accounts, but there is a culture of exaggeration surrounding NDE researchers who desperately want their theories to be given credibility. I imagine it's easy to get caught up in the hysteria of "true believers." It's unclear whether NDEs change with each retelling, but it would be one of the very few human phenomena where that doesn't occur.

[Cyberman]

Here's a thing. The site these anecdotes are coming from is called near-death.com. Is anyone surprised that it was set up to collect NDE anecdotes? It's like the way random.org is dedicated to generating random numbers, or timeanddate.com offering, as the google blurb says. "Lots of time and date related information".

We'd be much better off using sites dedicated to investigating NDEs critically.

[Mirek-Polska]

Here's a thing. The site these anecdotes are coming from is called near-death.com. Is anyone surprised that it was set up to collect NDE anecdotes? It's like the way random.org is dedicated to generating random numbers, or timeanddate.com offering, as the google blurb says. "Lots of time and date related information".

We'd be much better off using sites dedicated to investigating NDEs critically.

This website is also somewhat biased. It acknowledges that different cultures will have different content in their NDEs. Then, it goes on to say that Jesus is present because Jesus is a reincarnation of Krishna, of Yamra, of all gods and goddesses basically, so this Christian guy still gets to make a claim that Jesus is present in all NDEs.

[Cyberman]

Right, so it doesn't even hide that it has an agenda.