Trump seems to get a lot of trouble from the media because he says and does a lot of stupid and/or assholish things.

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(February 19, 2017 at 3:59 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: I'd say what Trump is doing now is massively destructive to him. He is now on the defensive about a lot of things. And the quickest way you get a politicians supporters to realise that he's lying is to get him into denial mode, as in a lot of cases that causes the supporters to find out why he's in denial, and they research the facts for themselves. When you lose the power of the narrative like that support often disappears very quickly.

And of course Trump's incoherence and easily disproved lies makes compounds his problems.

I disagree. It's obvious to everyone that Trump is lying. His supporters simply don't care.

(February 20, 2017 at 7:52 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote:

(February 19, 2017 at 3:59 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: I'd say what Trump is doing now is massively destructive to him. He is now on the defensive about a lot of things. And the quickest way you get a politicians supporters to realise that he's lying is to get him into denial mode, as in a lot of cases that causes the supporters to find out why he's in denial, and they research the facts for themselves. When you lose the power of the narrative like that support often disappears very quickly.

And of course Trump's incoherence and easily disproved lies makes compounds his problems.

I disagree. It's obvious to everyone that Trump is lying. His supporters simply don't care.

I'd say they've not heard a lot of the stuff that's actually going on. Remember they look at and listen to the likes of Fox, Breitbart and Limbaugh, sources of information which only impart a very partial amount of information, blocking vast swathes of reality and inventing fantasies in order to prop up their worldview to the detriment of the truth and critical analysis.

People who follow these sources rarely venture outside that bubble, so hearing Trump deny that Flynn was contacting Russia and was sacked for same is quite possibly the first they've heard of his links to Putin. And "I never heard X. Why is he denying X?" is a very strong precursir to "There must be something in X". As Terry Pratchett elaborated in Interesting Times, getting your opponent into denial mode is a great way to get his followers to believe he's up to his armpots in what he's denying.

(February 20, 2017 at 8:58 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: I'd say they've not heard a lot of the stuff that's actually going on. Remember they look at and listen to the likes of Fox, Breitbart and Limbaugh, sources of information which only impart a very partial amount of information, blocking vast swathes of reality and inventing fantasies in order to prop up their worldview to the detriment of the truth and critical analysis.

People who follow these sources rarely venture outside that bubble, so hearing Trump deny that Flynn was contacting Russia and was sacked for same is quite possibly the first they've heard of his links to Putin. And "I never heard X. Why is he denying X?" is a very strong precursir to "There must be something in X". As Terry Pratchett elaborated in Interesting Times, getting your opponent into denial mode is a great way to get his followers to believe he's up to his armpots in what he's denying.

You make the case for people living in a bubble and then expect them to do what they never did. Fact checking. Him denying X will not be filed under suspicious. It will be filed under wrongfully accused and him making a stand even if they didn't hear about X before. He won't fall over his fanbase. The only reason he can fall is a sufficient amount of sanity left in the political aparatus.

(February 20, 2017 at 9:33 am)abaris Wrote: You make the case for people living in a bubble and then expect them to do what they never did. Fact checking. Him denying X will not be filed under suspicious. It will be filed under wrongfully accused and him making a stand even if they didn't hear about X before. He won't fall over his fanbase. The only reason he can fall is a sufficient amount of sanity left in the political aparatus.

But when it is your own who is puncturing the bubble, that's when the blinkers are stripped away from you. I've seen it before with the catholic church here in Ireland, there was huge attendances at mass up until the '80's and the bishop's words were sacrosant (political careers were made and lost on what was read out from the pulpit during sermons). The whole edifice of lies didn't crash down on the church until they had to come out to bat away and deny, first of all with Eamon Casey diverting church and charity funds to support his son in America, then with the Magdalene Laundries, then the sex abuse scandals (the first cases of which erupted in the early eighties, but were ignored for a further ten years), until it's gotten to the stage where little more than 20% of the country can call them catholic in any sense other than the idea of being "cultural catholic".

When the church were able to ignore the scandals, through fear and background intimidation, they were able to keep a grip on the public consciousness, but once they lost control of the narrative the whole house of cards fell apart very quickly.

You see this over and over again, in cases where one group tries to maintain control through denying truth to the people.

(February 20, 2017 at 8:58 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: I'd say they've not heard a lot of the stuff that's actually going on. Remember they look at and listen to the likes of Fox, Breitbart and Limbaugh, sources of information which only impart a very partial amount of information, blocking vast swathes of reality and inventing fantasies in order to prop up their worldview to the detriment of the truth and critical analysis.

People who follow these sources rarely venture outside that bubble, so hearing Trump deny that Flynn was contacting Russia and was sacked for same is quite possibly the first they've heard of his links to Putin. And "I never heard X. Why is he denying X?" is a very strong precursir to "There must be something in X". As Terry Pratchett elaborated in Interesting Times, getting your opponent into denial mode is a great way to get his followers to believe he's up to his armpots in what he's denying.

I live in Trump country -- Central Texas.

This is a fundamental misreading of what's going on. Trumpeteers are aware of X (and Y and Z, sometimes) ... but they buy Trump's "lying media/fake news" rhetoric.

There may be some who get to the questioning phase you hope for eventually, but right now it simply ain't happening.

"The media lies."
-- Trump, 1/5/17

"Media is fake...Dishonest."
-- Trump, 1/9/17

"A lot of the media is actually the opposition party...They're very dishonest people."
-- Trump, 2/1/17

"The public doesn't believe you people any more."
-- Trump on media, 2/16/17

"The fake news media (failing New York Times, NBC News, ABC, CBS, CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!"
-- Trump, 2/17/17

"If you want to preserve democracy as we know it, you have to have a free and many times adversarial press...The first thing that dictators do is shut down the press. I'm not saying that President Trump is trying to be a dictator, I'm just saying we need to learn the lessons of history."
-- Sen. John McCain, 2/19/17

McCain, eh. Great presidential candidate...

He's so whiny. If he didn't want to ever be criticized maybe he should have run for head of the Princess Teacup Society.

(February 20, 2017 at 11:44 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(February 20, 2017 at 8:58 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: I'd say they've not heard a lot of the stuff that's actually going on. Remember they look at and listen to the likes of Fox, Breitbart and Limbaugh, sources of information which only impart a very partial amount of information, blocking vast swathes of reality and inventing fantasies in order to prop up their worldview to the detriment of the truth and critical analysis.

People who follow these sources rarely venture outside that bubble, so hearing Trump deny that Flynn was contacting Russia and was sacked for same is quite possibly the first they've heard of his links to Putin. And "I never heard X. Why is he denying X?" is a very strong precursir to "There must be something in X". As Terry Pratchett elaborated in Interesting Times, getting your opponent into denial mode is a great way to get his followers to believe he's up to his armpots in what he's denying.

I live in Trump country -- Central Texas.

This is a fundamental misreading of what's going on. Trumpeteers are aware of X (and Y and Z, sometimes) ... but they buy Trump's "lying media/fake news" rhetoric.

There may be some who get to the questioning phase you hope for eventually, but right now it simply ain't happening.

I know several people who have drunk the Kool Aid and buy into the lying media/fake news rhetoric.

I can't wait to see their response once the GOP establishment turns on their hero like a pack of wild dogs. Anyone who thought the inner turmoil of the Republican party was quelled by Trump's victory was as delusional as Trump's base is. The GOP will ride Trump as far as they reasonably can; after all, his antics help to obscure the really heinous shit going on as they enact their agenda. But once he threatens their mid-term prospects (to say nothing of their longer-term viability), the leaks will turn into a flood and he'll be finished. Pence is odious, but Trump and his inner circle of authoritarian goons make him look innocuous by comparison.