I think that is the most comprehensive, informative, well thought out, and notably devoid of sarcasm, post I have ever seen in a response from Min.

Well said sir.

History and archaeology can inspire me to do it, Pete.

Politics and religion?  No.

(March 1, 2017 at 5:07 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Hello again, TEGH.

Probably best to remember that "Greek" refers to a lot of disparate cultures sharing (probably) a linguistic base with numerous dialects and extends for an immense period of time.
We know from Evans' discovery of Linear-B tablets (and Ventris' subsequent deciphering of them) that they were in common use at the Palace of Knossos c 1450 BC and since language/written script does not develop overnight it can be assumed that they had been in general usage for some time prior.  In addition, there is Linear A which may well be an early form.  Linear B is a primitive form of Greek which means these myths developed over at least 1,500 years ( assuming the re-founding of the Palace culture on Crete after the Thera eruption c 1625 BC ) down to the beginning of the Common Era.

The thing is unlike Sumeria where we have tantalizing excerpts of ancient mythology going back to the Early Bronze Age (c 3000 BC) we have no hard evidence for the beginnings of the Greek mythology.  Even Linear B does not seem to have been used for literature as we know it but more for record-keeping which would have been exceedingly important to a commercial culture like the Minoan.  That leaves open the probability of oral tales being passed down from generation to generation and we know what happens with that.  To make matters worse the likelihood of syncretism as the various tales spread around the so-called Greek world means that ideas would have been adapted to fit local designs and usages and we are not likely to ever find any record of such. 

Probably easiest to think of it in terms of primitive peoples trying to make a modicum of sense out of the world given their limited ability to explore it.

(March 1, 2017 at 1:48 pm)Tea Earl Grey Hot Wrote: Hey all, it's been a while but I'm studying philosophy and mythology again so I figured it would be a good time to come back.

So I'm reading up on Greek mythology and what I'm having a hard time comprehending is what exactly  ancient Greeks were picturing when they imagined their many different gods, particularly those gods that are personifications of the aspects of the natural world? Take Helios, the sun god, for instance. Helios is described as this dude with a flaming chariot drawn by four flying horses. But obviously if you look at the sun you won't see this. You'll just see a glowing orb. So did they think that Helios and his chariot was invisible, with only the flames being visable?

Or take Gaia, aka Mother Earth. She's described as having a humanoid form and does things that humans do like speak, procreate, etc. But at this same time she's supposed to be the actual earth that we all inhabit. How were these two seemingly incompatible things compatable in the minds of the Greeks?

Was it meant literally? Or was it all just metaphorical language? Or did these beings actually exist in humanoid form in some other plane of existence with the natural world being some very imperfect representation of them? What were Greeks thinking?

*emphasis mine*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra

Quote:Ra was worshipped as the Creator god among some ancient Egyptians, specifically followers of his cult at Heliopolis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliopolis...ent_Egypt)

Quote:Heliopolis is the latinized form of the Ptolemaic Greek name Hēlioúpolis (Ἡλιούπολις), meaning "City of the Sun". Helios, the personified and deified form of the sun, was identified by the Greeks with the native Egyptian gods Ra and Atum, whose principal cult was located in the city.

You seem to assume that what you refer to as Greek mythology was originally created by the Greeks, that is simply not the case. As I've stated repeatedly on these forums, Greek mythology is nothing more than a derivative of Egyptian mythology which the Egyptians derived from ancient Babylon.

Also

http://www.artic.edu/~llivin/research/gr...tian_gods/

Quote:Richard Poe in “Black Spark, White Fire” argues that the assumption that the ancient Egyptians did not sail across the Mediterranean Sea is a carefully constructed scientific myth. Evidence that the ancient Egyptians did just that is similar to the volume of evidence that the Phoenicians and Minoans sailed that sea. Scientists willingly accept those cultures’ seafaring capability, yet illogically limit the ancient Egyptians’ capability to do the same.
Still, there is powerful evidence to show that the Egyptians did venture beyond the Nile. It is also known that they possessed a large fleet. And Thor Heyerdahl showed that even their “primitive boats” were able to master the currents of the oceans – thus very well equipped to master the much calmer waters of the Mediterranean Sea.

The same veil of ignorance is maintained when it comes to philosophy. Both Plato and Pythagoras, identified as icons of Greek philosophy, stated that they and other great Greek philosophers had studied and learned that knowledge in Egypt. Many had studied many years at Egyptian schools, to return to Greece as the “first philosophers”.

Thales of Milete

Iamblichus wrote that Thales of Milete had to make it clear to Pythagoras that the latter had to go to Memphis, in Egypt, to study. Thales added that it were the Egyptian priests that were a veritable source of knowledge and information. Thales stated this at a time when he himself was Greece’s most famous and applauded philosopher, even though it would be his protégé Pythagoras who is currently best remembered as the “first philosopher”.
After Socrates’ death, Plato left for Egypt, where he studied for a period of 13 years. His mentor was Sechnuphis, a priest of Heliopolis (modern Cairo and thus near the Great Pyramid).

Years afterwards, Strabo would travel through Egypt. His Egyptian guide showed him where Plato had lived. It was how Plato learned the fable of Thoth and Amun, which he wrote down in Phaedros. Despite its clearly Egyptian source, many “scholars” interpreted that treatise as a “typically Greek” text. They “explained” their anomalous thinking by arguing that the Greeks “bragged”. They argued that the Greeks wanted to make their philosophy appear to be much older than it actually was. Though possible, it is clear that the available evidence (of which we have not even presented one percent) in this case does not warrant such a conclusion. If the Greeks stated they learned their philosophy from the Egyptians, why not simply accept that?

The answer is clear: whereas the ancient Greeks were completely comfortable with their inheritance of the Egyptian philosophy, modern scholars were not. As a result, they have had to jump through hoops to explain certain of Plato’s writings.

Basically what we have here is a bit of historical revisionism.

Huggy74

Thank you for sharing your search about this. I believe that all ancient religions are derived from the same religion;  God revealed the faith across time, that's why everything rings a deja-vu, it's not "derived" from; it's the same faith but twisted and forged, and the different flavor is just the cultural and environmental factor.

I also took some classes on this but I'm about to go to work so I'm replying to make it appear on my posts. I will read and really when I get to a desk top

Hugs, the issue of Greek mythology - which has been shown to exist in the Late Bronze Age at the Oracle of Delphi as early as 1,600 BC - has nothing to do with the philosophy of 5-6th century BC Greek Philosophers.  Greek religion was exported to Magna Graecia - Southern Italy - beginning in the 8th century BC and temples to their gods were built which subsequently influenced the Roman pantheon.

I don't know where this guy Poe (great name, btw) gets the idea that scholars said the Egyptians did not sail.  It seems to be a strawman argument.  What Egypt lacked was wood but that did not stop them from engaging in a long-term and lucrative trade with the Phoenician settlements in Lebanon where cedar was a major Egyptian import dating back to the Old Kingdom.  The Solar Barque of Khufu, which dates to about 2,500 BC is constructed of Lebanon cedar.  Lebanese cedar has been found in various tombs and other buildings.  Further we have archaeological evidence for Egyptian shipping from the reign of Hatshepsut on the Red Sea.  The evidence for extensive maritime commerce in the Late Bronze Age among the various empires and kingdoms bordering the Mediterranean is overwhelming.  Read Eric Cline's 1177 BC for more info.

You'd be better off worrying more about how judaism and its weak-sister, jesusism, was cobbled together from Sumerian folk tales and Persian Zoroastrianism and Hellenistic Mystery Cults much later on.

From his book listings on amazon, Poe seems to be a combination of far-right conspiracy theorist (he's written at least two books proclaiming Hilary Clinton a seekrit-naarzi) and self-help get rich quick scammer. What he most emphatically is not is a historian.

Given the tenor of his other books, and this review by an actual expert in the field, I would suggest that the book Huggy is quoting from is a mass of bullshit, plain and simple.

The most basic answer I can give (which seems silly compared to Min's responses lol) are that a lot of them thought that humans could best gods and replace them so I assume that yes they thought the gods were either invisible or shape shifters.

(March 6, 2017 at 11:51 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: From his book listings on amazon, Poe seems to be a combination of far-right conspiracy theorist (he's written at least two books proclaiming Hilary Clinton a seekrit-naarzi) and self-help get rich quick scammer. What he most emphatically is not is a historian.

Given the tenor of his other books, and this review by an actual expert in the field, I would suggest that the book Huggy is quoting from is a mass of bullshit, plain and simple.

Actually I was quoting a magazine article, and that article used Poe as a source, and even then he is only talking about the sea faring capabilities of the ancient Egyptians, NOT mythology.

http://philipcoppens.com/egyptgreece.html

Quote:Richard Poe in “Black Spark, White Fire” argues that the assumption that the ancient Egyptians did not sail across the Mediterranean Sea is a carefully constructed scientific myth.

I see how you ignored the Wiki links I also included.

So your desperate attempt to attack the source really has no merit. I should also add that I'm the ONLY one who posted a source...
 


Just so we're clear, are you saying that the Greeks came up with their own mythology independent of any outside influences?