(April 9, 2017 at 7:59 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Ah, but it seemed clear enough 'back in the day', so SOMETHING changed.

And what of those EXTREMELY clear (classical) marital vows ??  

What undoes something likely that freely entered into, in a church, before God and congregation ??

The marriage vow can be anything you want it to be.It's a state ceremony, after all. "By the power invested in me by the STATE of California I now pronounce you man and wife."

"Do you, Rhonda Johnson, promise to take this man...until you find out what an asshole he is?" And I can't find out until after I say "I do."

Isn't gambling one of the 7 deadly sins?

(April 8, 2017 at 11:54 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Just because you're butt hurt over not having any good arguments for your position, don't commit ad homs on the rest of us.

We are rightly sceptical of Jesus claims for the simple fact that there is no evidence at all supporting them. There is the claim, and that's it.

Well, except for the evidence we do have (which I will repeat as often as you make your silly, juvenile claim): The churches spread throughout the empire within 15 years of Jesus' death, the the 27 different authenticated writings discussing Jesus and his teachings, and ancillary works and references throughout the first century.

You may not like the evidence, but there is large amounts of evidence that points to the fact that Jesus not only walked the earth, but people genuinely believed he was the Son of God that came to make possible a relationship with God.

(April 10, 2017 at 8:24 am)SteveII Wrote:

(April 8, 2017 at 11:54 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Just because you're butt hurt over not having any good arguments for your position, don't commit ad homs on the rest of us.

We are rightly sceptical of Jesus claims for the simple fact that there is no evidence at all supporting them. There is the claim, and that's it.

Well, except for the evidence we do have (which I will repeat as often as you make your silly, juvenile claim): The churches spread throughout the empire within 15 years of Jesus' death, the the 27 different authenticated writings discussing Jesus and his teachings, and ancillary works and references throughout the first century.

You may not like the evidence, but there is large amounts of evidence that points to the fact that Jesus not only walked the earth, but people genuinely believed he was the Son of God that came to make possible a relationship with God.

No such thing as a human with magic super powers. Nobody is born with invisible god goo  without a second set of DNA. And nobody survives that act of torture intended to murder someone dead. You do that to a human in reality, they would die AND STAY DEAD.

I rely could give a shit less what you claimed happened. There is no record of his existence outside what the bible claims. All that crap was manufactured and put in the NT AFTER THE FACT. But I really don't give a shit. If you found the body of a man all that would mean is you found a MAN, not a fucking magician.

Nobody was born a virgin. Nobody poofed water into wine. Nobody walked on water. Nobody cured the blind. None of the fantastic claims the bible says he did happened. All mythology, nothing more. Other religions back then and prior also had deities and heros who made claims of performing fantastic feats. 

It is simply another underdog wins the day story. Nothing more. The bible could claim Jesus turned a frog into a prince or claim he farted a Lamborghini out of his ass and it would still be NONSENSE.  None of the fantastic claims happened. Nobody saws the woman in half either.

---

Christian "Christianity became successful and spread"

Me "So what" 

Jews "We finally became a nation"

Me, "So what".

Muslims, "We have billions of members"

Me, "So what"

Buddhists, "We have billions of members"

Me, "So what"

Hindus, "We have large numbers too".....


Yep and? Still does not mean humans have special powers or talk to a hero from a divine place. 

All religions are successful for one reason only, people buy into them. 

Most humans do have a pet claim, but you do know what claims are like, everyone has one.

(April 10, 2017 at 8:41 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(April 10, 2017 at 8:24 am)SteveII Wrote: Well, except for the evidence we do have (which I will repeat as often as you make your silly, juvenile claim): The churches spread throughout the empire within 15 years of Jesus' death, the the 27 different authenticated writings discussing Jesus and his teachings, and ancillary works and references throughout the first century.

You may not like the evidence, but there is large amounts of evidence that points to the fact that Jesus not only walked the earth, but people genuinely believed he was the Son of God that came to make possible a relationship with God.

No such thing as a human with magic super powers. Nobody is born with invisible god goo  without a second set of DNA. And nobody survives that act of torture intended to murder someone dead. You do that to a human in reality, they would die AND STAY DEAD.

I rely could give a shit less what you claimed happened. There is no record of his existence outside what the bible claims. All that crap was manufactured and put in the NT AFTER THE FACT. But I really don't give a shit. If you found the body of a man all that would mean is you found a MAN, not a fucking magician.

Nobody was born a virgin. Nobody poofed water into wine. Nobody walked on water. Nobody cured the blind. None of the fantastic claims the bible says he did happened. All mythology, nothing more. Other religions back then and prior also had deities and heros who made claims of performing fantastic feats. 

It is simply another underdog wins the day story. Nothing more. The bible could claim Jesus turned a frog into a prince or claim he farted a Lamborghini out of his ass and it would still be NONSENSE.  None of the fantastic claims happened. Nobody saws the woman in half either.

---

Christian "Christianity became successful and spread"

Me "So what" 

Jews "We finally became a nation"

Me, "So what".

Muslims, "We have billions of members"

Me, "So what"

Buddhists, "We have billions of members"

Me, "So what"

Hindus, "We have large numbers too".....


Yep and? Still does not mean humans have special powers or talk to a hero from a divine place. 

All religions are successful for one reason only, people buy into them, or sometimes they are threatened with disembowelment if they don't join up.

Most humans do have a pet claim, but you do know what claims are like, everyone has one.

TFTFY.

(April 10, 2017 at 10:22 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

---

SteveII Wrote:Well, except for the evidence we do have (which I will repeat as often as you make your silly, juvenile claim): The churches spread throughout the empire within 15 years of Jesus' death, the the 27 different authenticated writings discussing Jesus and his teachings, and ancillary works and references throughout the first century.

You may not like the evidence, but there is large amounts of evidence that points to the fact that Jesus not only walked the earth, but people genuinely believed he was the Son of God that came to make possible a relationship with God.

Except that is not evidence of what you want it to be evidence of. No one disputes that Christianity caught on. So what? So did Islam (and it's catching up despite Christianity's 800 year head start). No one disputes that Christians believed Jesus was the Son of God...that's what being a Christian means.

But none of that is evidence that Jesus was actually the demigod miracle-worker he needs to be for your religious beliefs to actually be true. The same evidence doesn't work for Krishna being an incarnation of Vishnu or Mohammed taking dictation from the archangel Gabriel. Having a standard of evidence means you have to apply it equally, without favor, to all similar claims. If you accept an argument from 'lots of people believed it', then you have to accept similar claims from other religions.

Christianity really existed and still does, and Christians believe Jesus was the son of God or God incarnate. That's not at all what is under contention here.

The problem is with defining words.

Evidence refers to pieces of information or facts that help us establish the truth of something. Proof is a conclusion about the truth of something after analyzing the evidence. Evidence is suggestive of a conclusion. Proof is concrete and conclusive.

The churches spread throughout the empire within 15 years of Jesus' death, the the 27 different authenticated writings discussing Jesus and his teachings, and ancillary works and references throughout the first century is certainly evidence that Jesus did what the people claim he did and said the things they claim he said. 

Proof can have different thresholds. Anywhere from more likely than not (preponderance of the evidence), to beyond a reasonable doubt, to absolute. These are all arrived at by considering evidence. So, to say that my list is not evidence is simply wrong. What you mean is that in your opinion, it is not proof. That's fine--that is the threshold you chose.

No, it isn't. Not if the same kind of evidence doesn't work for the supernatural claims for Krishna, Mohammed, and Buddha. Evidence has to point to specific conclusions. The only thing people believing in supernatural events has ever successfully pointed to is that people are prone to believe supernatural events occur. When there's no strong direct evidence of such events, ever, there's no good reason to suppose that for some particular story, this time the supernatural stuff is real.

(April 10, 2017 at 11:00 am)vorlon13 Wrote:

(April 10, 2017 at 8:41 am)Brian37 Wrote: No such thing as a human with magic super powers. Nobody is born with invisible god goo  without a second set of DNA. And nobody survives that act of torture intended to murder someone dead. You do that to a human in reality, they would die AND STAY DEAD.

I rely could give a shit less what you claimed happened. There is no record of his existence outside what the bible claims. All that crap was manufactured and put in the NT AFTER THE FACT. But I really don't give a shit. If you found the body of a man all that would mean is you found a MAN, not a fucking magician.

Nobody was born a virgin. Nobody poofed water into wine. Nobody walked on water. Nobody cured the blind. None of the fantastic claims the bible says he did happened. All mythology, nothing more. Other religions back then and prior also had deities and heros who made claims of performing fantastic feats. 

It is simply another underdog wins the day story. Nothing more. The bible could claim Jesus turned a frog into a prince or claim he farted a Lamborghini out of his ass and it would still be NONSENSE.  None of the fantastic claims happened. Nobody saws the woman in half either.

---

Christian "Christianity became successful and spread"

Me "So what" 

Jews "We finally became a nation"

Me, "So what".

Muslims, "We have billions of members"

Me, "So what"

Buddhists, "We have billions of members"

Me, "So what"

Hindus, "We have large numbers too".....


Yep and? Still does not mean humans have special powers or talk to a hero from a divine place. 

All religions are successful for one reason only, people buy into them, or sometimes they are threatened with disembowelment if they don't join up.

Most humans do have a pet claim, but you do know what claims are like, everyone has one.

TFTFY.

"TFTFY"? I do have some social media lingo under my belt, but not familiar with that.

There, Fixed That For You

(April 10, 2017 at 7:40 am)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(April 9, 2017 at 7:59 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Ah, but it seemed clear enough 'back in the day', so SOMETHING changed.

And what of those EXTREMELY clear (classical) marital vows ??  

What undoes something likely that freely entered into, in a church, before God and congregation ??

The marriage vow can be anything you want it to be.It's a state ceremony, after all. "By the power invested in me by the STATE of California I now pronounce you man and wife."

"Do you, Rhonda Johnson, promise to take this man...until you find out what an asshole he is?" And I can't find out until after I say "I do."

Isn't gambling one of the 7 deadly sins?

People write their own vows frequently, but many use the classic 'till death us do part, what god has put together, let no man put asunder'  but even the classic version apparently has a hidden asterisk that leads to an additional clause:

no, no not really, we don't really mean it, and even though we are promising such things, in a CHURCH, before GOD, we aren't taking it very seriously BECAUSE the church itself ISN'T TAKING IT SERIOUSLY EITHER, FUCK YOU JESUS AND YOUR SILLY IDEAS, WE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU.