(June 24, 2017 at 9:58 pm)Fireball Wrote: An axiom is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments. It isn't taken as a FACT. I trust my thinking (for the most part) because I can base it on the physical reality I see/feel/hear around me. Yes, those transducers can give me false information. How have you lived to your current age, with your "untrustworthy" brain?

Actually, you should trust the physical reality only if it is consistent and logical, not the other way around. When you see a mirage before you, you immediately reject its appearance based on your inner knowledge that it is a natural optical phenomenon.

(June 24, 2017 at 9:58 pm)Fireball Wrote: Well, shit, Min ninja'd me. If I'd read down to this point before posting, I wouldn't have posted. OP, Islam is no more true than an Invisible Pink Unicorn, or Scientology (which is demonstrably false, as people have seen the formation of that "religion" in real time. Ascribing to a religion that has its roots in antiquity doesn't make it any more true. If you live in the US, did you vote for Donald Trump? If not, why not? This is an actual homework assignment.

Nobody asked for your baseless thoughts about Islam ...

Thank you for replying.

(June 24, 2017 at 10:54 pm)Parsim0ny Wrote: [edit]

Nobody asked for your baseless thoughts about Islam ...

[edit]

Nobody asked for your baseless thoughts regarding atheism.

(June 24, 2017 at 10:11 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Surely an agnostic's claims are that they don't know if any proof has ever been given correctly about god.

I'm not asking you to trust my thinking, but my thinking is that I can't speak Arabic, I have no interest in learning Arabic and the quran translated to English doesn't sound special to me.

The problem that you're talking about is actually a problem that faces Muslim claims rather than agnostic claims.

Your claim is that you know the quran is perfect, that you know Muhammad was perfect and all the other prophets, yet you couldn't possibly know what is perfect unless you have perfect judgement which you don't.

The problem I'm talking about concerns agnostics as well, everybody seems to agree with me that we NEED to trust our brains and trust their ability to attain truth. What's the source of this trust ? Is it mere belief or hope ? What's your position on this ?

I firmly believe that without assuming that some absolute power created our mind, nothing can be said or done, nothing can be proved or refuted. Therefore the fact that I can demonstrate logical statements and discern between sound and unsound arguments is proof of this power's existence. Where am I mistaken ?

(June 24, 2017 at 9:45 pm)Nymphadora Wrote: I smell a sock. A dirty, dirty sock.

I'm starting to detect a certain socky aroma as well.

(June 24, 2017 at 11:00 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Nobody asked for your baseless thoughts regarding atheism.

You're right, nobody asked me to post this. But since you came to my post you're compelled to reply with something related. What does the thread have to do with Islam for God's sake ? And yes, his thoughts about this religion specifically are at best unfounded.

Besides, you still didn't answer any of my questions.

(June 24, 2017 at 11:04 pm)Parsim0ny Wrote:

(June 24, 2017 at 10:11 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Surely an agnostic's claims are that they don't know if any proof has ever been given correctly about god.

I'm not asking you to trust my thinking, but my thinking is that I can't speak Arabic, I have no interest in learning Arabic and the quran translated to English doesn't sound special to me.

The problem that you're talking about is actually a problem that faces Muslim claims rather than agnostic claims.

Your claim is that you know the quran is perfect, that you know Muhammad was perfect and all the other prophets, yet you couldn't possibly know what is perfect unless you have perfect judgement which you don't.

The problem I'm talking about concerns agnostics as well, everybody seems to agree with me that we NEED to trust our brains and trust their ability to attain truth. What's the source of this trust ? Is it mere belief or hope ? What's your position on this ?

I firmly believe that without assuming that some absolute power created our mind, nothing can be said or done, nothing can be proved or refuted. Therefore the fact that I can demonstrate logical statements and discern between sound and unsound arguments is proof of this power's existence. Were am I mistaken ?

I can prove you wrong.  I don't assume there is an absolute power that created my mind yet in typing this message I am showing my capability to do something.

(June 24, 2017 at 11:09 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(June 24, 2017 at 11:04 pm)Parsim0ny Wrote: The problem I'm talking about concerns agnostics as well, everybody seems to agree with me that we NEED to trust our brains and trust their ability to attain truth. What's the source of this trust ? Is it mere belief or hope ? What's your position on this ?

I firmly believe that without assuming that some absolute power created our mind, nothing can be said or done, nothing can be proved or refuted. Therefore the fact that I can demonstrate logical statements and discern between sound and unsound arguments is proof of this power's existence. Were am I mistaken ?

I can prove you wrong.  I don't assume there is an absolute power that created my mind yet in typing this message I am showing my capability to do something.

You're showing your capability of doing something only in the eyes of creatures with similar minds and intelligence. Nothing proves that you can attain an objective truth about anything, it's a basic assumption that you have to accept blindly, or rationalize by the existence of a superior power.

(June 24, 2017 at 11:14 pm)Parsim0ny Wrote:

(June 24, 2017 at 11:09 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I can prove you wrong.  I don't assume there is an absolute power that created my mind yet in typing this message I am showing my capability to do something.

You're showing your capability of doing something only in the eyes of creatures with similar minds and intelligence. Nothing proves that you can attain an objective truth about anything, it's a basic assumption that you have to accept blindly, or rationalize by the existence of a superior power.

You can only rationalize by the existence of a superior power in the eyes of creatures with similar minds and intelligence.  Which puts you in the exact same position except you're adding an unneccesary unproven god into the mix.

This brings me back to what I was saying before.

An agnostic says they don't know.

You say you do know that the quran is perfect, muhammad is perfect and all the prophets are perfect yet you're judging them using your own imperfect, bias, indoctrinated mind.

This isn't to pick on you for being indoctrinated, bias or imperfect.  I believe all humans are bias, imperfect and indoctrinated in some way.