This applies to all moderate theistic religious (christians, jews, muslims, etc.). The ones who don't claim that their belief is better, that don't interpret their holy texts literally. My mom is one of them, she claims that we may never know if there's a God or not, but believing that a loving God who protects you will give you positive energy. It's like saying: "I don't know how the world works but I'll imagine it how I want it to be, because the reality can be scary". Why are they so emotionally connected to this, yet willing (or more likely) to change their opinion in every other aspect of life? And if they don't see their opinion as better, why are they insisting so much on it?

Well, they tend not to be as insistent as other religious people, from my experience. It's less about seeing their opinion as "better", but a matter of them needing to rely on personal fantasies (in this case, self-admitted fantasies) to provide emotional or mental security for themselves. A kind of placebo effect, if you will.

Regardless, I'm fine with people who want to believe in certain things for personally inspirational purposes or as coping mechanisms. That technically does count as a delusion, but even so, it's hardly a crime, especially if it's for the purpose of maintaining emotional composure and stability. Where I take issue is when they try to pass it off as fact and/or when it blatantly comes into conflict with reality and is still maintained. At that point, it becomes an undeniable delusion that absolutely deserves to be called out.

(July 3, 2017 at 8:50 am)YouOnlyLiveTwice Wrote: Well, they tend not to be as insistent as other religious people, from my experience. It's less about seeing their opinion as "better", but a matter of them needing to rely on personal fantasies (in this case, self-admitted fantasies) to provide emotional or mental security for themselves. A kind of placebo effect, if you will.

Regardless, I'm fine with people who want to believe in certain things for personally inspirational purposes or as coping mechanisms. Where I take issue is when they try to pass it off as fact and/or when it blatantly comes into conflict with reality and is still maintained. At that point, it becomes an undeniable delusion.

But why are they using a particular religion as an aplacebo effect? Why aren't they trying more religions,in the free world there's no law that says they can't. They can even try having more religions at once if they want.

Indoctrination and cultural pressure. I'm pretty sure the main reason a lot of more moderate or liberal christians keep claiming they're religious is because it's easier to work with the community, and they don't see a lot to gain from proclaiming atheism.

(July 3, 2017 at 9:01 am)Die Atheistin Wrote: But why are they using a particular religion as an aplacebo effect? Why aren't they trying more religions,in the free world there's no law that says they can't. They can even try having more religions at once if they want.

It may not necessarily be a religion — just any belief can be used as an emotional crutch. As for why they choose not to try other religions, if they're comfortable adhering to a set belief, what reason do they have to change it? Remember that these beliefs in of themselves count as delusions. It's also worth noting that the vast majority of religious people didn't actually choose their religion after studying it objectively, but were indoctrinated into it instead. Some people are beginning to see logic, but are still unable to fully let go of their religious beliefs and thus cling onto it with any rationalization they can. It's a form of being in denial, whether consciously or not. I am more sympathetic to these people because I understand the difficulty of severing ties with something you've perceived as the truth for so long, or to let go of something you've used as a crutch for so long.

That said, for me, this is really just a matter of not having the strength to face reality as it is. I know many people who are completely happy knowing reality as it is, without the need to believe in self-admittedly non-existent entities for comfort. The need to appeal to higher and external powers, the need to come up with quick and easy explanations for things at the cost of logic and sense, and the need to cast blame on something supernatural, to me, have always constituted an admission of personal deficiencies, just one that people are often in denial about.

It's a question for atheists I suppose. Do we advocate for the religious to go to our side in one fell swoop, or do we tolerate a stepped or gradualist approach thru increasing impiety, more and more scripture cherry picking, an insidious slide to further and greater heresy, and creeping apostasy ?

It seems dishonest to me to offer solace and encouragement to folks with religious sensibilities to feel comfortable in a gradual erosion of their fealty to their professed belief in all their strictures, edicts, pronouncements, rules, laws, dogma and commandments while knowing I'm rejoicing in their gradual blasphemies and hoping they eventually get to where I am instead of just being honest with themselves and their (needing to be blown out their asses) God.

(July 3, 2017 at 8:34 am)Die Atheistin Wrote: This applies to all moderate theistic religious (christians, jews, muslims, etc.). The ones who don't claim that their belief is better, that don't interpret their holy texts literally. My mom is one of them, she claims that we may never know if there's a God or not, but believing that a loving God who protects you will give you positive energy. It's like saying: "I don't know how the world works but I'll imagine it how I want it to be, because the reality can be scary". Why are they so emotionally connected to this, yet willing (or more likely) to change their opinion in every other aspect of life? And if they don't see their opinion as better, why are they insisting so much on it?

I'm not sure I'd consider any of those religions moderate, and they do claim that their belief is better, but that is another discussion. 

Some people need a fantasy to feel good about themselves. It can be something other than god. Psychics, communicating with the dead, superstition, homeopathic medicine, healing crystals,..... just to name a few.  

Have they said that they are going to heaven? Is death their "scary" part that they need positive energy for/from? This might be their biggest motivator.

Maybe they are just big fans of Pascal.

(July 3, 2017 at 8:34 am)Die Atheistin Wrote: This applies to all moderate theistic religious (christians, jews, muslims, etc.). The ones who don't claim that their belief is better, that don't interpret their holy texts literally. My mom is one of them, she claims that we may never know if there's a God or not, but believing that a loving God who protects you will give you positive energy. It's like saying: "I don't know how the world works but I'll imagine it how I want it to be, because the reality can be scary". Why are they so emotionally connected to this, yet willing (or more likely) to change their opinion in every other aspect of life? And if they don't see their opinion as better, why are they insisting so much on it?

All of the religions you mentioned are by definition exclusive (explicitly rule out other possibilities/religions and claim they are the only way). The person you describe as 'moderate' is simply not an adherent and has invented their own version--a version you really can't then characterize as any of the three you mentioned. In other words, no person can redefine the words: "Christian", "Judiasm", and "Islam".

I think almost all humans are predisposed to believe in the supernatural so the result is that many create a hodgepodge of beliefs to satisfy that inclination--especially if they are not inclined to investigate and develop a systematic belief system.

(July 3, 2017 at 10:02 am)SteveII Wrote:

(July 3, 2017 at 8:34 am)Die Atheistin Wrote: This applies to all moderate theistic religious (christians, jews, muslims, etc.). The ones who don't claim that their belief is better, that don't interpret their holy texts literally. My mom is one of them, she claims that we may never know if there's a God or not, but believing that a loving God who protects you will give you positive energy. It's like saying: "I don't know how the world works but I'll imagine it how I want it to be, because the reality can be scary". Why are they so emotionally connected to this, yet willing (or more likely) to change their opinion in every other aspect of life? And if they don't see their opinion as better, why are they insisting so much on it?

All of the religions you mentioned are by definition exclusive (explicitly rule out other possibilities/religions and claim they are the only way). The person you describe as 'moderate' is simply not an adherent and has invented their own version--a version you really can't then characterize as any of the three you mentioned. In other words, no person can redefine the words: "Christian", "Judiasm", and "Islam".

I think almost all humans are predisposed to believe in the supernatural so the result is that many create a hodgepodge of beliefs to satisfy that inclination--especially if they are not inclined to investigate and develop a systematic belief system.

Yeah, I also think that moderates don't really follow the actual religions (not very much, at the very least), but these moderates usaully consider themselves of particular faith.

I don't know that atheists are less likely to envision the universe in a way that makes it more palatable. How many are convinced that science will, eventually, solve all social problems and lead to a kind of paradise on earth? How many honestly believe that near eternal life is just around the corner? How many think that there is some kind of cognitive continuance after death, something along the lines of reincarnation or being part of a universal, deep consciousness? We know that our perceptions of the cosmos are drastically limited by our biological evolution. We barely understand just how much we don't understand.

Atheists are often thought of as being the hardest of hard core materialists, and that is certainly true for many. But the hardest of hard core materialism can be a dry and dreary place for others, and there are reasons to suspect it might not describe the cosmos as it really is. Still, at this point in human evolution, pretty much any ideas of what "reality" really is, is mostly speculation. Many religious speculations have proven to be utterly wrong, and it is quite legitimate to reject any of the god ideas human kind has invented. But that still leaves a lot of room for imagination when it comes to what the cosmos might really be, and what our place in it might really mean.