That's because believers don't recognize that jesus, like any demi god..is an idealized concept of the potential of man (for better or for worse).  By "believing in jesus" - you are simply believing in your own potential.  

If you doubt the son of man, you doubt yourself; and life's turbulent waters overwhelm you.  Take heart, gentle reader..because even in fear and despair, sinking into the deep.....if you recover your faith, you will once again be able to breath the air above those stormy seas.

Or, floaty feet.  Take your pick.  

(July 11, 2017 at 11:16 am)*Deidre* Wrote: I think part of that passage is designed to get believers believing that with Jesus, they can do the impossible from a human pov. It's those very passages that work to erode one's own confidence even though it might not seem that way. Over time, you go from thinking that you can't do the impossible without Jesus to thinking you can't do anything without him.

Around and around we go, endless verbiage. Deidre, your mind is host to a parasite, a mind virus. As the man said:

Quote:"A temple is worth a dozen barracks; a militia man carrying a gun could control a small unarmed crowd only for as long as he was present; however, a single priest could put a policeman inside the head of every one of their flock, for ever."

Iain M Banks

Deidre. Did it ever once cross your mind that your only problem is, you need to grow up?

(July 11, 2017 at 6:12 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(July 11, 2017 at 11:16 am)*Deidre* Wrote: I think part of that passage is designed to get believers believing that with Jesus, they can do the impossible from a human pov. It's those very passages that work to erode one's own confidence even though it might not seem that way. Over time, you go from thinking that you can't do the impossible without Jesus to thinking you can't do anything without him.

Around and around we go, endless verbiage. Deidre, your mind is host to a parasite, a mind virus. As the man said:

Quote:"A temple is worth a dozen barracks; a militia man carrying a gun could control a small unarmed crowd only for as long as he was present; however, a single priest could put a policeman inside the head of every one of their flock, for ever."

Iain M Banks

Deidre. Did it ever once cross your mind that your only problem is, you need to grow up?

If I am reading Deidre correctly, it really isn't a different principle than training a pet. Even lions and tigers will do what a human trains them to do if they don't understand they could rip them to shreds. IF IF IF I am reading the black bold correctly, I agree.

Religion, political party, and even economic views only have the power that humans give the leaders. 

No matter how wrong any faction might be, be the faction about politics, religion or economics, all it takes is one person, or a group of people to lead others down very dark roads. But let me make this perfectly clear, this agreement DOES NOT MEAN that the magic baby and zombie god story of the bible are true. But in that it is easy to brainwash masses of people to do your bidding.

I'm not interested in insults, if you think you're better than me, you're not. You may struggle with things that I don't struggle with, no one is better than anyone here.

(July 11, 2017 at 7:54 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I'm not interested in insults, if you think you're better than me, you're not. You may struggle with things that I don't struggle with, no one is better than anyone here.

No one is better than anyone in our entire species history. In 5 billion years humans will be long extinct and there wont be anyone around then to give one fuck about you OR ME. 

I do however think when making claims about the nature of reality, facts matter. No, I am not talking about government protection of human rights, I MOST CERTAINLY SUPPORT THAT.

But, the ability to utter a claim doesn't make it true by proxy of the ability to put a naked assertion in print or make sound waves.

Otherwise I could claim "Angelina Jolie is giving me a blowjob as you read this.". But somehow I think you rightfully reject that.

If I walked up to you in person tomorrow and claimed to you face to face, "The New England Patriots beat the Chicago Cubs in the Stanley Cup".... Would your response be "Oh that's cute"? Or like me "No and bullshit because the Patriots play football, the Cubs play baseball and the NHL championship called the Stanley Cup is unrelated to both baseball and NFL".

Instead of looking at bluntness in terms of hate of you the individual, maybe consider you got it wrong and the aim is at hate of bad logic?

(July 11, 2017 at 11:02 am)mordant Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 11:20 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I've just had an epiphany. And it's basically how can something that I honestly don't believe in from a logical/factual standpoint, bring me comfort? How can something that my mind doesn't really accept anymore, bring me emotional comfort? So maybe, all this time, it's been me...comforting me. And calling it god. Why was it so hard for me to give myself credit? Idk.

I've never seen myself as that strong, honestly...but I must have been. Pardon me while I sit here in awe over this revelation lol, I didn't even feel this way when I identified as an atheist a few years ago, but this is something. I've been capable all along.

Bingo!

"Me ... comforting me. And calling it god."

Similarly, I've often said that the only morality that exists is societal morality -- the net corpus of explicit and implicit negotiations between people about how to coexist and collaborate. But religion claims to have invented it, and to sustain it -- and even there, they use god as a proxy. God invented it, god sustains it. Yet the only morality a Christian has is the same morality a non-Christian has. They just ascribe a different origin story to it, and add extra features and prohibitions and such, so that "outsiders" can be accused of being licentious for not being as strict in some areas as the religion is.

Same thing here ... the only comfort is what you make for yourself or receive from other humans ... you have just been assigning that to god and assuming you can't obtain it anywhere else. It's just operant conditioning.

Another parallel is Christians thanking god for, say, eradicating cancer in someone -- when all along it was the doctors, the medicine, and their immune system that did the job.

Have a GREAT day ... bask in the revelation!

I wish most people would choose to communicate like you - some have in the thread (thank you), but there's always those who think they're smarter/better/stronger/more mature because they never got hung up on spirituality. From the sounds of it, I'm not alone, even among atheists, who have conflicts from time to time. Maybe not the identical conflicts, but conflicts nonetheless. Thanks for your respect to the topic...and to me.  And I am basking , it's good to finally make sense of all of this, and to deal with it. I've done a lot of rug sweeping and that really didn't get me anywhere.

---

(July 11, 2017 at 8:13 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(July 11, 2017 at 7:54 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I'm not interested in insults, if you think you're better than me, you're not. You may struggle with things that I don't struggle with, no one is better than anyone here.

No one is better than anyone in our entire species history. In 5 billion years humans will be long extinct and there wont be anyone around then to give one fuck about you OR ME. 

I do however thing when making claims about the nature of reality, facts matter. No, I am not talking about government protection of human rights, I MOST CERTAINLY SUPPORT THAT.

But, the ability to utter a claim doesn't make it true by proxy of the ability to put a naked assertion in print or make sound waves.

Otherwise I could claim "Angelina Jolie is giving me a blowjob as you read this.". But somehow I think you rightfully reject that.

If I walked up to you in person tomorrow and claimed to you face to face, "The New England Patriots beat the Chicago Cubs in the Stanley Cup".... Would your response be "Oh that's cute"? Or like me "No and bullshit because the Patriots play football, the Cubs play baseball and the NHL championship called the Stanley Cup is unrelated to both baseball and NFL".

Instead of looking at bluntness in terms of hate of you the individual, maybe consider you got it wrong and the aim is at hate of bad logic?

I don't disagree with you, but the process of unraveling a mindset isn't always easy for everyone. That's the whole point of the thread, to share that all along, I have had a need to believe, out of fear, out of many things, but a need to believe in something that logically, has no factual basis. And that other people can relate to some of this, is helpful. And I'm not debating anyone, I'm admitting that I've allowed my emotions to override my logic. Seems like maybe you want to debate theism, but that's not the point of the thread.

I posted this on atheist republic which I've been a member there for a few years, but not all that active, and have rec'd some insightful answers, as well. One such response dealt with how faith 'invades' every part of our culture, and how it's hard to escape a cultural indoctrination when it comes to faith, so sometimes, some atheists do struggle with their atheist positions, even if just towards society. I thought that was particularly interesting, and as a person who has spent most of my life following some form of faith, I never paid attention to the fact that many atheists might feel like ''outsiders'' in a culture that is always expecting everyone to behave as if they believe in some type of deity.

(July 11, 2017 at 8:13 pm)*Deidre* Wrote:

(July 11, 2017 at 11:02 am)mordant Wrote: Bingo!

"Me ... comforting me. And calling it god."

Similarly, I've often said that the only morality that exists is societal morality -- the net corpus of explicit and implicit negotiations between people about how to coexist and collaborate. But religion claims to have invented it, and to sustain it -- and even there, they use god as a proxy. God invented it, god sustains it. Yet the only morality a Christian has is the same morality a non-Christian has. They just ascribe a different origin story to it, and add extra features and prohibitions and such, so that "outsiders" can be accused of being licentious for not being as strict in some areas as the religion is.

Same thing here ... the only comfort is what you make for yourself or receive from other humans ... you have just been assigning that to god and assuming you can't obtain it anywhere else. It's just operant conditioning.

Another parallel is Christians thanking god for, say, eradicating cancer in someone -- when all along it was the doctors, the medicine, and their immune system that did the job.

Have a GREAT day ... bask in the revelation!

I wish most people would choose to communicate like you - some have in the thread (thank you), but there's always those who think they're smarter/better/stronger/more mature because they never got hung up on spirituality. From the sounds of it, I'm not alone, even among atheists, who have conflicts from time to time. Maybe not the identical conflicts, but conflicts nonetheless. Thanks for your respect to the topic...and to me.  And I am basking , it's good to finally make sense of all of this, and to deal with it. I've done a lot of rug sweeping and that really didn't get me anywhere.

---

(July 11, 2017 at 8:13 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No one is better than anyone in our entire species history. In 5 billion years humans will be long extinct and there wont be anyone around then to give one fuck about you OR ME. 

I do however thing when making claims about the nature of reality, facts matter. No, I am not talking about government protection of human rights, I MOST CERTAINLY SUPPORT THAT.

But, the ability to utter a claim doesn't make it true by proxy of the ability to put a naked assertion in print or make sound waves.

Otherwise I could claim "Angelina Jolie is giving me a blowjob as you read this.". But somehow I think you rightfully reject that.

If I walked up to you in person tomorrow and claimed to you face to face, "The New England Patriots beat the Chicago Cubs in the Stanley Cup".... Would your response be "Oh that's cute"? Or like me "No and bullshit because the Patriots play football, the Cubs play baseball and the NHL championship called the Stanley Cup is unrelated to both baseball and NFL".

Instead of looking at bluntness in terms of hate of you the individual, maybe consider you got it wrong and the aim is at hate of bad logic?

I don't disagree with you, but the process of unraveling a mindset isn't always easy for everyone. That's the whole point of the thread, to share that all along, I have had a need to believe, out of fear, out of many things, but a need to believe in something that logically, has no factual basis. And that other people can relate to some of this, is helpful. And I'm not debating anyone, I'm admitting that I've allowed my emotions to override my logic. Seems like maybe you want to debate theism, but that's not the point of the thread.

Many of us here used to believe, including me. You are having residual emotions based on prior sales pitches. What you are feeling is no different trying to let go of Santa. No different then when I was growing up as a pre teen and teen pining after girls. it is natural to buy the script before you have the ability to question the script, but the reality is humans begin life mostly adapting the superstitions of their parents. No different than me facing the fact as a pre teen and teen having to face that the cheerleader will not automatically like you because you find her attractive.

If you admit you have allowed your emotions to rule you you are 99% there. The last step is to accept that it is STILL ok to have emotions, just don't chalk them up to Superman vs Lex Luther. Just like I at one time would have equated mere smile to a desire on her part to like me in return.

It is certainly ok to have emotions, as long as you don't let your brains fall out.

(July 11, 2017 at 8:13 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I wish most people would choose to communicate like you - some have in the thread (thank you), but there's always those who think they're smarter/better/stronger/more mature because they never got hung up on spirituality. From the sounds of it, I'm not alone, even among atheists, who have conflicts from time to time. Maybe not the identical conflicts, but conflicts nonetheless. Thanks for your respect to the topic...and to me.  And I am basking , it's good to finally make sense of all of this, and to deal with it. I've done a lot of rug sweeping and that really didn't get me anywhere.

Nope -- you're not alone and you'r not an idiot or a weakling. You're just figuring it out as you go, like all of us.

Many atheists who aren't deconverts can't relate to this ... I've heard many frankly admit it. It's understandable. But they don't have to disrespect deconverts either. In fact, I have often referred to my journey our of faith as prying ideas out of my head with a crowbar, over many years. It's hard work. It should be respected.

Now, after a couple of decades, my former beliefs seem just as silly to me, but I try not to forget where I came from, or the price I paid for the journey.

(July 11, 2017 at 9:44 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(July 11, 2017 at 8:13 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I wish most people would choose to communicate like you - some have in the thread (thank you), but there's always those who think they're smarter/better/stronger/more mature because they never got hung up on spirituality. From the sounds of it, I'm not alone, even among atheists, who have conflicts from time to time. Maybe not the identical conflicts, but conflicts nonetheless. Thanks for your respect to the topic...and to me.  And I am basking , it's good to finally make sense of all of this, and to deal with it. I've done a lot of rug sweeping and that really didn't get me anywhere.

---

I don't disagree with you, but the process of unraveling a mindset isn't always easy for everyone. That's the whole point of the thread, to share that all along, I have had a need to believe, out of fear, out of many things, but a need to believe in something that logically, has no factual basis. And that other people can relate to some of this, is helpful. And I'm not debating anyone, I'm admitting that I've allowed my emotions to override my logic. Seems like maybe you want to debate theism, but that's not the point of the thread.

Many of us here used to believe, including me. You are having residual emotions based on prior sales pitches. What you are feeling is no different trying to let go of Santa. No different then when I was growing up as a pre teen and teen pining after girls. it is natural to buy the script before you have the ability to question the script, but the reality is humans begin life mostly adapting the superstitions of their parents. No different than me facing the fact as a pre teen and teen having to face that the cheerleader will not automatically like you because you find her attractive.

If you admit you have allowed your emotions to rule you you are 99% there. The last step is to accept that it is STILL ok to have emotions, just don't chalk them up to Superman vs Lex Luther. Just like I at one time would have equated mere smile to a desire on her part to like me in return.

It is certainly ok to have emotions, as long as you don't let your brains fall out.

Thank you for this. You've ''adjusted'' to living without faith - what was your transition like from faith to living a life without it? When I left Christianity about five years ago, and then eventually identified as an atheist, I hadn't been ''tested'' until my grandmother died, and it wasn't right away. So, the ''transition'' for lack of a better word, wasn't hard at first. It only became hard when I realized that there was no escape route, and that I had to embrace the pain of my grandmother's death. Faith and religion, they can serve as comfortable escape routes. So, just wondering.

(July 11, 2017 at 9:50 pm)mordant Wrote:

(July 11, 2017 at 8:13 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I wish most people would choose to communicate like you - some have in the thread (thank you), but there's always those who think they're smarter/better/stronger/more mature because they never got hung up on spirituality. From the sounds of it, I'm not alone, even among atheists, who have conflicts from time to time. Maybe not the identical conflicts, but conflicts nonetheless. Thanks for your respect to the topic...and to me.  And I am basking , it's good to finally make sense of all of this, and to deal with it. I've done a lot of rug sweeping and that really didn't get me anywhere.

Nope -- you're not alone and you'r not an idiot or a weakling. You're just figuring it out as you go, like all of us.

Many atheists who aren't deconverts can't relate to this ... I've heard many frankly admit it. It's understandable. But they don't have to disrespect deconverts either. In fact, I have often referred to my journey our of faith as prying ideas out of my head with a crowbar, over many years. It's hard work. It should be respected.

Now, after a couple of decades, my former beliefs seem just as silly to me, but I try not to forget where I came from, or the price I paid for the journey.

Thank you mordant! You're been such a great help, you don't even know.