Sufficient evidence can be subjective depending on the person though. Personally I feel like I have sufficient evidence for my faith specifically, and I certainly don't believe in everything I hear. So I don't see how an outsider could conclude that I'm delusional.

(July 29, 2017 at 3:31 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Sufficient evidence can be subjective depending on the person though. Personally I feel like I have sufficient evidence for my faith, but that doesn't mean I believe in everything I hear. So I don't see how an outsider could conclude that I'm delusional.

The same way that a psychologist deems someone, who has subjective evidence for his faith in killing other people, as delusional.

Subjective, personal faith is not a safeguard against delusion.

(July 26, 2017 at 10:28 am)mh.brewer Wrote: OP: you can acknowledge the delusion but never foster or indulge it. 

You might need to fake it if your well being is being threatened.

A subway platform surrounded by hostile people is probably not the best place to be. That guy meant for those people to turn on you. Read my signature.

In the op story, I think you might have come across as less of a bad guy if you had been kinder. Remember, retarded people are like children. You might have distracted him. "Prayer, oh yes, I saw a man at the employment agency the other day. He looked just like you. A fine looking chap. He got the job and I bet you could to..."

Unless you're an evangelist for atheism, you don't have to get in trouble telling people what they don't want to hear. Descrettion is the greater par of valor.

(July 29, 2017 at 3:27 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(July 29, 2017 at 3:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But why are you so certain that theist folks are delusional though? Don't you think there is a chance that a theist could be right? 

I guess the reason I'm saying this is because my impression has been that most atheists take the stance that there is a possibility that some sort of god or gods could exist. There just isn't sufficient evidence for them personally to be convinced of it. 

It's a far jump from thinking that way to making the claim that theists are delusional. 

With that being said, you have every right to tell the man that you will not pray for him because you don't believe in it. That is your choice of course. But I just don't agree with it being referred to as "fostering a delusion" if you told him yes, when you can't be sure that it is a delusion.

Delusion is not a great leap.

When you logically compare theists, who believe in something without sufficient evidence to prove its existence, with insane asylum inmates, who believe whatever crazy stuff they do without sufficient evidence to prove the existence of whatever it is in which they believe, then it is easier to understand how delusion is not a big leap.

Psychologists today are slowly beginning to compare religious beliefs to delusion; the only thing that has kept religious belief from fully being described as a delusion is the sad fact that many people adhere to this thing called religion, as though the word alone is a safeguard against insanity.

This ^^^
Couldn't have said it better myself.

And, Catholic Lady, I can assure you this guy was delusional because prayer doesn't work. Are you suggesting that his canvassing for prayers actually did anything to improve his life? That if I had prayed for him, god would have been like, 'okay then, if a 20th random person asks me, I guess I'll just stop screwing with this mentally ill person and give him everything he wants'? No, it's a societally accepted delusion that does nothing but deceive people into thinking there are forces working in their favour that aren't really there.

Person wanted a job, a drivers license, and a girlfriend. I'm guessing they weren't ultimately looking for prayers, but some sort of connection with other people as they were alone and having a rough go of it. That they said 'pray for me' rather than 'wish me luck' doesn't seem too important.

That's how some people are. It's not so different from coming onto an internet forum, and posting your feelings, and hoping for interaction or reassurances from strangers.

The world's a lonely place, and people try cope with that the best they can.

(July 29, 2017 at 8:41 pm)wallym Wrote: Person wanted a job, a drivers license, and a girlfriend.  I'm guessing they weren't ultimately looking for prayers, but some sort of connection with other people as they were alone and having a rough go of it.  That they said 'pray for me' rather than 'wish me luck' doesn't seem too important.  

That's how some people are.  It's not so different from coming onto an internet forum, and posting your feelings, and hoping for interaction or reassurances from strangers.  

The world's a lonely place, and people try cope with that the best they can.

I couldn't agree more with the sentiment, wally. But I'm a bit more pragmatic than that: human connection is one thing. False hope is another. Religion prays (aren't I punny) on people who need that sort of connection and fulfillment. It takes people's problems and pretends there's a solution (that Jesus loves you and you're entitled to an eternity in heaven). The value is fake. I'd post on an internet forum because I want to discuss something, evaluate my own views, and hopefully make better decisions from that consideration. Once you put fake factors like prayer into your decision making process, what you are achieving is the exact opposite. If you are down on your luck and you think Jesus is going to save you, you're much worse off than if you felt like you were alone (because you were) and fixed your own situation. That is the distinction, and in my mind it is perhaps the most important distinction in the world. It is the difference between lies and truth, between deteriorating and improving.

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(July 29, 2017 at 4:58 am)Dropship Wrote: Guy: Can you pray for me? Can you pray for me to get a job and get a driver's license and find a girlfriend?
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Somebody should tell him that's not the way it works!
15 years ago I was just out of jail (3 month vigilante rap), homeless, jobless, womanless and near-penniless, living rough in a tent in a remote wood shivering with thyroid problems, but not for an instant did I feel the need to pray for myself or ask others to pray for me because I was too busy laughing at myself.
"Great" I thought, "I've ended up as Bigfoot!
The moral? Our fate is in our own hands, I've always had christian values which make us regard the world as a cabaret, not to be taken seriously..

Firstly, I'm glad to hear you got through that tough time! 
Is it really such a stretch, though, to extend the belief in god to thinking god is the answer to all of your problems? If I believed in god, I'd probably be prayer farming as well. If there's value to one person's prayer, it stands to reason that the prayers of many are worth a proportionate amount more. Under a bounded reasoning that assumes prayers actually mean something, it's not an irrational thing to do. It's religion that's the problem.

(July 29, 2017 at 9:14 pm)shadow Wrote:

(July 29, 2017 at 8:41 pm)wallym Wrote: Person wanted a job, a drivers license, and a girlfriend.  I'm guessing they weren't ultimately looking for prayers, but some sort of connection with other people as they were alone and having a rough go of it.  That they said 'pray for me' rather than 'wish me luck' doesn't seem too important.  

That's how some people are.  It's not so different from coming onto an internet forum, and posting your feelings, and hoping for interaction or reassurances from strangers.  

The world's a lonely place, and people try cope with that the best they can.

I couldn't agree more with the sentiment, wally. But I'm a bit more pragmatic than that: human connection is one thing. False hope is another. Religion prays (aren't I punny) on people who need that sort of connection and fulfillment. It takes people's problems and pretends there's a solution (that Jesus loves you and you're entitled to an eternity in heaven). The value is fake. I'd post on an internet forum because I want to discuss something, evaluate my own views, and hopefully make better decisions from that consideration. Once you put fake factors like prayer into your decision making process, what you are achieving is the exact opposite. If you are down on your luck and you think Jesus is going to save you, you're much worse off than if you felt like you were alone (because you were) and fixed your own situation. That is the distinction, and in my mind it is perhaps the most important distinction in the world. It is the difference between lies and truth, between deteriorating and improving.

There is value in thinking someone is praying for you.  There is value in praying for yourself.  As a coping mechanism.  As a social interaction.  There's no God on the line taking the call, but the act of another person saying they are concerned for you is a real thing.  I know you don't like the 'fake' part, but I think that's just decorative.  It's not what it's about.  

And I hear what you're saying with being pragmatic.  But for some people, there is no happy ending.  There will never be a happy ending.  It's just a matter of being as comfortable as possible as the ship sinks.  If a person is running around the subway asking for strangers to pray for a job/girlfriend/license, they're fucked.  That's likely not a situation where a good life is on the table if they just make the right choices.

Just the idea of being pragmatic is beyond the capabilities of many people.  I think we take what our brains can do for granted.  That there is an assumed baseline that everybody is above, and I think that baseline is way higher than where it is in reality.  

Not that this is always the situation.  There are plenty of situations where religion is bad.  And buying into lies is bad.  But I don't think it matters for begging for prayers on subway people.  I think with them, you can give them a second or two of comfort, or not, and that is the entirety of the significance.  And that's probably why they do it, because a few small positive moments is all they can get.

(July 29, 2017 at 9:14 pm)shadow Wrote:

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..Is it really such a stretch, though, to extend the belief in god to thinking god is the answer to all of your problems? If I believed in god, I'd probably be prayer farming as well. If there's value to one person's prayer, it stands to reason that the prayers of many are worth a proportionate amount more. Under a bounded reasoning that assumes prayers actually mean something, it's not an irrational thing to do. It's religion that's the problem.

There are generally two sorts of prayer-
1- The first is where you quietly chat to God, telling him your personal  troubles, it 'logs' you onto God and you get a 'feelgood power download' from him-
 "Our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power"- (1 Thess 1:5)
It won't necessarily make your troubles go away, but you'll feel energised and more able to handle them..

2- The second type is where you pray to God to change things in the world that you don't like, or to cure illness etc.
In that respect think of prayer as "thought pressure" that can influence this fragile illusion or dream that we call "reality".
"The [quantum] atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts"– Prof. Werner Heisenberg (Nobel Prize winner in Physics)

In fact we can speculate that perhaps Jesus was a 'Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation',  bending "reality" to perform his 37 miracles.
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one''- Einstein
"All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream"- Edgar Allen Poe
"You can be in my dream if i can be in your dream"- Bob Dylan
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on"- The Tempest
"Strawberry Fields...nothing is real"- The Beatles
"What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes" - Bible,James 4:14
"Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"- Morpheus in The Matrix

PS- Of course, prayers don't always visibly work, at least not in the short term, but think of a prayer as having a "butterflies wing effect"  that gains momentum over the weeks, months or years.
BTW I know a middleaged christian street preacher who puts his life 100% into the hands of God, and won't lift a finger to help himself, and as a result his life is a total and utter mess, he's been hauled up court twice for not paying his council tax, he's got 2 failed marriages behind him, and his electricity, gas and phone have been cut off at various times for failing to pay the bills, plus he pedals his bike around after dark with no lights, expecting God to protect him!
I told him to get some organisation and discipline into his life and reminded him of this verse-
"For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of selfdiscipline" (2 Tim 1:7)

but he completely ignores me and carries on "trusting in God" regardless.
So now I ignore him and cross the street to avoid him..

(July 29, 2017 at 11:55 pm)wallym Wrote: There is value in thinking someone is praying for you.  There is value in praying for yourself.  As a coping mechanism.  As a social interaction.  There's no God on the line taking the call, but the act of another person saying they are concerned for you is a real thing.  I know you don't like the 'fake' part, but I think that's just decorative.  It's not what it's about.  

And I hear what you're saying with being pragmatic.  But for some people, there is no happy ending.  There will never be a happy ending.  It's just a matter of being as comfortable as possible as the ship sinks.  If a person is running around the subway asking for strangers to pray for a job/girlfriend/license, they're fucked.  That's likely not a situation where a good life is on the table if they just make the right choices.

Just the idea of being pragmatic is beyond the capabilities of many people.  I think we take what our brains can do for granted.  That there is an assumed baseline that everybody is above, and I think that baseline is way higher than where it is in reality.  

Not that this is always the situation.  There are plenty of situations where religion is bad.  And buying into lies is bad.  But I don't think it matters for begging for prayers on subway people.  I think with them, you can give them a second or two of comfort, or not, and that is the entirety of the significance.  And that's probably why they do it, because a few small positive moments is all they can get.

Firstly, I really appreciate this response. This is the discussion I was hoping for.

I guess the problem I have with accepting this is... is it really as simple as 'they're fucked'? Personally, nothing in my life is even comparably as valuable to me as my ability to make rational decisions. I feel I could operate under no other condition. So the thought of leaving large groups of people out of this paradigm simply because I think they're not able to be pragmatic in that fashion feels cruel. In the most poignant sense. To strand someone in delusion would feel to me like leaving them to drown.

This view is based on my own experiences (growing up in a very secular household) and the successes I've had operating under a rational paradigm. So I wouldn't try to defend it as objective. But for me, if I could give someone a moment of comfort or a moment of sanity, I'd choose sanity.

In the case of some (perhaps this case), maybe I'm being an optimist to assume that it is possible for a person to be rational. I think Alzheimer's patients are a good example of where it's kind of pointless to try to convince people to pragmatically understand the world around them. From then on there are varying degrees of capacity, and at some point the benefits of pragmatism outweigh the value of false hope for increasing someone's wellbeing.

With things like religion confusing people, I think there's a large number of people who are capable of much more rationality than they regularly express and act upon. These are the people I would be loathe to give up on, and they are the ones who are causing the cool stats that show atheism levels increasing so dramatically in many regions. I suppose the challenge lies in determining who is who, and that is a matter of judgement that will vary between people.

Thanks, you've really helped me understand the other side of this.

(July 29, 2017 at 3:31 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Sufficient evidence can be subjective depending on the person though. Personally I feel like I have sufficient evidence for my faith specifically, and I certainly don't believe in everything I hear. So I don't see how an outsider could conclude that I'm delusional.

It's because none of the things you consider evidence lead rationally to the conclusion that the thing you believe in is real.