So, not sure if I'm missing a contextual clue, but this 'die for a lie' thing, does it imply that these people KNOW it's a lie and just keep on going anyway? Because I doubt anyone who died in a crusade or suicide bombing lacked at least a partial faith-based motivation, if not some other fear-motivated irrational decision-making that led them to that, or if they had some kind of incentive (having their destitute family be provided for in exchange, for example). But if a person's convictions are such that they believe something no matter how implausible, then for fuck's sake, OF COURSE they can be motivated to martyr themselves for it. If a better life beyond this one is what they genuinely believe awaits, and the price is giving this life to serve the needs of its creator, well, that sure as hell seems adequate. The only truly amazing part of it is that no matter what level of social status or education, someone can still fall prey to this lunacy.

Of course they do not think it is a lie.

Every theist thinks his bullshit is true.

But they can't all be right, can they?

I love saying this: "No, but they CAN all be WRONG!"

So yeah...the whole 'die for a lie' thing should earn a slap for whoever tries pulling that shit.

You have crossed the line from extreme verbal abuse to inciting violence which is not acceptable regardless of your personal beliefs about religion.

Dude it's the fucking internet. Saying someone needs a slap for doing something stupid is not 'inciting violence.' I know the persecuted Christian gambit is like a muscle you have to exercise else it will atrophy, but this one is a little dumb.

Maybe you should go protest at the local city hall when the Church of Satan has the audacity to want an equal display next to the Ten Commandments on the lawn at the courthouse.

(July 30, 2017 at 7:46 pm)Astonished Wrote: So, not sure if I'm missing a contextual clue, but this 'die for a lie' thing, does it imply that these people KNOW it's a lie and just keep on going anyway?

Yes, that is the context of the argument.  Not whether someone believed it was true, but knowing if it is or not and maintaining what you know is false under pressure to say otherwise.  So it only applies to those who say they saw the risen Christ.

(July 31, 2017 at 2:34 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Dude it's the fucking internet. Saying someone needs a slap for doing something stupid is not 'inciting violence.' I know the persecuted Christian gambit is like a muscle you have to exercise else it will atrophy, but this one is a

It is recommending assault and battery. Would you slap your wife for saying something stupid? When is it ever accepible to slap a stranger because they said something stupid? Why would you suggest that others do so?

(July 31, 2017 at 3:55 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: It is recommending assault and battery. Would you slap your wife for saying something stupid? When is it ever accepible to slap a stranger because they said something stupid? Why would you suggest that others do so?

No one actually ever means it. It's a colloquialism, "they should get slapped." That's why I said it's the internet. People talk about how Trump should get smacked, talk about how they would punch someone. It's pretty clear they don't actually mean that it should really happen. Especially when talking about people who supposedly lived 2000 years ago.

RoadRunner79 Wrote:

Astonished Wrote:So, not sure if I'm missing a contextual clue, but this 'die for a lie' thing, does it imply that these people KNOW it's a lie and just keep on going anyway?

Yes, that is the context of the argument.  Not whether someone believed it was true, but knowing if it is or not and maintaining what you know is false under pressure to say otherwise.  So it only applies to those who say they saw the risen Christ.

That's a bit of a stretch. The writers of the gospels could easily have believed they were reporting the facts and just been wrong. The authors weren't the witnesses, and they don't seem to have gotten their information directly from supposed witnesses either. They wrote down the stories they were told, that they already believed. No one had to lie, events being exaggerated after the fact is selected for in retellings because it makes them more memorable.

I don't think people who think they've seen Elvis posthumously are lying (with probably some exceptions). That in no way implies that Elvis has been resurrected, does it? Isn't it more likely that they just saw someone who resembles Elvis? Imagine what it must have been like in the first century when no one even had a photo of Jesus to compare to, and a lot of people had only seen him from a distance?

Or what if Jesus just survived the crucifixion? He was taken down awfully fast, victims were usually left up until they were so rotten they fell off, and he gave up the ghost within hours when most victims would last days. Last ditch rescue attempt to get their messiah off the cross alive by drugging him into unconsciousness? He would certainly have left an empty tomb and had wounds to show after that, and a reason to hightail it off before the Romans caught on that their guy had gotten away.

The authors could have been completely sincere and just wrong about some of the facts, even things central to the religion. Have you seen what we can still get wrong in the age of information and fact-checking? People seriously believe Clinton was running a pedophile ring out of a pizza joint and that she maintains a death squad to knock off anyone who might be politically dangerous to her. There's just no reason to think people were more immune to being taken in by fake news 2,000 years ago than they are now.

(July 31, 2017 at 2:34 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Dude it's the fucking internet. Saying someone needs a slap for doing something stupid is not 'inciting violence.' I know the persecuted Christian gambit is like a muscle you have to exercise else it will atrophy, but this one is a little dumb.

Maybe you should go protest at the local city hall when the Church of Satan has the audacity to want an equal display next to the Ten Commandments on the lawn at the courthouse.

Hell, might knock some sense into him!