(July 30, 2017 at 5:37 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(July 29, 2017 at 1:42 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: Hi CL - 

This was during the same year that my grandmother died, 2015 - like about 8 months after, and I had been struggling with atheism. I was searching into other religions, aside from Christianity. I wasn't practicing any one particular faith. One day, I felt like the ''Holy Spirit'' was in the room with me. I just felt this overwhelming sense of peace and joy, and it felt like an actual breeze or wind had come through the room. I know it might sound crazy, but I googled this, and people have ''reported'' incidents of having these same types of feelings and chalked it up to a Holy Spirit experience. There are more details than this, but that is the gist, and I think I made the leap to faith, because I was identifying as an atheist then. Became rather indifferent after searching for answers in other faiths after my grandmother's death, so I just resigned myself to the fact that okay, I'm okay with there being no god. But, a few months back into faith, I logically didn't believe the Bible, and still almost felt like I was being intellectually dishonest. Fast forward to a few weeks ago, and this is where I'm at with it.

I read something recently about religion/faith, and how there is a scientific explanation as to how our brains tend to bring about a desired effect, so perhaps I was searching for something more to exist, and maybe I just was having a great day in general, and applied faith to the moment. Supposedly, there is a scientific explanation for what we think should happen from faith, and it actually happening, and our minds draw conclusions that there is no logical explanation, it had to be a faith ‘’experience.’’ Or a miracle of some type. But, it felt real back then, when it happened.

Thank you for sharing your story. 

It's impossible to give an opinion on this case in particular because what you experienced was mostly internal/emotional... it wasn't anything tangible that I can really analyze. (unless you mean that literally there was a wave of physical wind in the room, in that case we can talk about whether there were any windows open, vents on, etc)

So yeah, it could have been just your own body naturally feeling that way, and not the Holy Spirit. But I also think it doesn't rule out being the Holy Spirit. And here's why... 

I can tell you I've fallen to my knees and prayed in my most desperate of times, and I've really looked for and hoped to feel the Holy Spirit in those times. I too have heard about people having these supernatural experiences with the Holy Spirit, so I've wanted it to happen to me, and I've looked for it, and sometimes even expected it because I was praying so hard and needing Jesus so much. Nonetheless, I've never been able to feel that. So I'm not sure that it can be so easily explained away like, "oh you only felt that because you expected to, so your body made it up." Because I have have expected it and wanted it, and yet never felt it. And didn't you say you were atheist at the time? So I imagine you were never expecting any of that when it happened. 

Now, I'm not saying that this must mean it truly was the Holy Spirit. I just don't think the old "you felt it because you expected it" is a satisfactory explanation for how this happened to you.

Thank you for your reply, CL. Yea, I've gone around and around in my mind about this. At the time, I was struggling with my grandmother's death, and perhaps it was based on wishful thinking, those ''feelings'' that I had...and I felt it was the Holy Spirit. I had googled other people's experiences with such things, and they were all pretty similar. Maybe it's okay to not always be certain of everything, even as an atheist, I couldn't be certain that my views were right. They were just my views. Just like theists have their views. And so on. I admire that you have stayed true to your faith, even when you might doubt, too. I imagine we all doubt from time to time.

I wish you well in your search for truth and hope you feel comfortable and confident in whatever conclusion you come to.

(July 31, 2017 at 5:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I wish you well in your search for truth and hope you feel comfortable and confident in whatever conclusion you come to.

LOL, I was about to make a joke, but you edited.

Yeah I thankfully caught it hahaha

(July 31, 2017 at 5:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I wish you well in your search for truth and hope you feel comfortable and confident in whatever conclusion you come to.

Thank you so much CL!

(July 31, 2017 at 5:23 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: Thank you for your reply, CL. Yea, I've gone around and around in my mind about this. At the time, I was struggling with my grandmother's death, and perhaps it was based on wishful thinking, those ''feelings'' that I had...and I felt it was the Holy Spirit. I had googled other people's experiences with such things, and they were all pretty similar. Maybe it's okay to not always be certain of everything, even as an atheist, I couldn't be certain that my views were right. They were just my views. Just like theists have their views. And so on. I admire that you have stayed true to your faith, even when you might doubt, too. I imagine we all doubt from time to time.

Google around a bit more and you'll learn about the "god spot" which is an area of the brain which, when stimulated with an electrode, produces compelling, transcendent, positive feelings of a Presence. Stimulate a slightly different spot and you get foreboding, negative feelings of a malignant Presence. There are also ways to access this via meditation and other life experiences. And this is just the beginning of personal subjective experiences you can have that make you feel watched / watched over, have out of body perceptions, and the like. Knowing that these things are possible, that you were under stress and experiencing terrible loss and grief, and that you are a person who leads so to speak with your emotions in some situations, and it seems that there are very plausible and documented reasons for your experience which at least render god(s) unnecessary to explain it.

None of this is a criticism in any way, it is simply to point out that there are multiple naturalistic explanations for your experience and that "the holy spirit" is far from the only hypothesis that fits the facts. Also, "the holy spirit" is not a falsifiable hypothesis, where the others at least potentially are.

Finally, and more generally, personal subjective experiences, no matter how impressive or real they may be when experienced, cannot serve as objective empirical confirmation of anything, unless potentially if it's part of what I call a shared reality with others. For example my wife and stepson are in the house with me as I write this, that is my impression, and I'm quite sure that if I dragged a random stranger in off the street into my house, that person would see my wife and stepson also. When I'm out in public with either of them, every random person I encounter sees them too. That's shared reality. That's confirming. Something that no one but you can perceive is inherently unconfirmed in ways that matter to whether you should consider it anything more than a construct of your mind.

Lest you think I'm hyper-rational and have no personal experience with this: I mentioned somewhere in another thread I think that my stepson has a weird affinity for ghost hunts. As a high school graduation gift we took him to a ghost hunt and stayed up all night doing that sort of thing in a creepy old house. All three of us witnessed some things we definitely have no explanation for, although I have some theories which we actually went back to test and could not reproduce the experience (as is so often true of these things, approach it with a critical eye and there's nothing to actually see and people around you don't reinforce what you're supposed to see). It is tempting, particularly for my wife, to assume the backstory for all this that is implicitly provided by the ghost hunting outfit that ran the thing, but the bottom line is that even with a shared experience you have to consider the very real possibility of mass hysteria and suggestibility and that naturalistic explanations are far more likely to be true.

As an atheist there are things I don't know and things I can't explain, in fact, the set of things I don't understand and which I acknowledge that I don't understand is greater than when I was under the sway of the false certitude of Christianity. It is to be expected. I just try not to feel any urgency to explain things I am not sure about any old way I can just to say there's an explanation.

Just some general thoughts on the topic, for what they are worth to you.

mordant, I have so much to say, but for now...THANK YOUUU

So, has anything bad happened to you since you stopped believing (again)?

(August 2, 2017 at 12:22 am)*Deidre* Wrote: mordant, I have so much to say, but for now...THANK YOUUU

I genuinely envy Mordant's command of the English language, and his empathy. Mind you, I'm no slouch, but he's got it going on, at least with the English language part. My empathy could use a little polishing.

(August 2, 2017 at 12:23 am)Khemikal Wrote: So, has anything bad happened to you since you stopped believing (again)?

Happened? 

I'm still working through it but looks like spiritual atheism would fit well because it allows me to be intellectually honest with myself, but keep an open mind to the possibilities of the universe.