One author I respect made a compelling argument against humans being capable of unconditional love, but I cannot remember precisely how she worded it.

If I have the time, I'll try to find it.

(August 3, 2017 at 9:19 am)mh.brewer Wrote: You first have to be able to understand love, I don't.

You can understand the number "1" as word, but also understand that that word can apply to a multitude of things. Like "1" apple, "1" car, "1" year.

"Love" is also word that can mean different things to different people in different contexts.

"I love ABBA"

Does not mean the same thing as 

"I love my Mom"

Does not mean the same thing as,

"I love well done steaks".

Some humans in say dating and marriage have a very unhealthy attitude about what they think "love is". 

I confused for a long time as a teen that any show of attention by a female meant "love" in reality it was simply my hormones. Others think displaying jealousy and controlling their love interest is "love" when really it is emotional abuse. 

I wouldn't put it like this.

I would say that individual relationships can be complex, and that some individuals be it dating, marriage, or parent child can have closer bonds and connections and some don't and certainly because our species is diverse, in that context you cant always explain why a relationship does or does not work. 

I would say the more healthy ones that last longer involve good communication skills where the "love" is not based on control or dominance but problem solving and working together. 

My Mom and I were a perfect example. Our relationship when I was a kid was not as healthy as it became in her later years. In retrospect I know she always loved me deeply, but back then neither of us had any lick of clinical psychology childhood development understanding. She was of the WW2 era where boys don't cry and "just do it", and I was sensitive so that mix did cause us to butt heads. But as an adult I grew to accept myself and eventually she did as well.

Some would have looked at us and said, "They are such a miss match" and we were, but it worked, and I would say the biggest reason was that we never held grudges and we never stayed angry at each other. 

But in dating and marriage no, you cannot always explain why a specific couple works, or why they are attracted to each other. But even with all that complexity it still amounts to evolution.

"Love" in the family/relationship dynamic is simply a result of our evolutionary tendency to form groups and socialize and that fosters empathy for others.

Brian has defaulted into that category since he died and no longer has the opportunity to fuck up my feelings for him, not that I think he could regardless.

And it looks like I'm equating unconditional with perpetual, sue me.

Dewey is still living, I can't imagine my feelings for him changing, they've strengthened over the years (LOL, decades) since I've last seen him. I 'grok' him better the older I get and have experiences that illuminate to me what he had already been thru when we met and how he became the person I met and fell for. And then finding out about the heyoka thing, that clinched the deal. Heyokas have slipped into US culture a few times; Younger Bear in Little Big Man was probably the first, and while not explicitly referenced as such in the movie, John Dunbar in Dances With Wolves was clearly drawn as a heyoka.

(August 3, 2017 at 9:42 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Brian has defaulted into that category since he died and no longer has the opportunity to fuck up my feelings for him, not that I think he could regardless.

And it looks like I'm equating unconditional with perpetual, sue me.

Dewey is still living, I can't imagine my feelings for him changing, they've strengthened over the years (LOL, decades) since I've last seen him.  I 'grok' him better the older I get and have experiences that illuminate to me what he had already been thru when we met and how he became the person I met and fell for.  And then finding out about the heyoka thing, that clinched the deal.  Heyokas have slipped into US culture a few times; Younger Bear in Little Big Man was probably the first, and while not explicitly referenced as such in the movie, John Dunbar in Dances With Wolves was clearly drawn as a heyoka.

Whaaaa? Not quite sure what you meant by this.

I think "love" can be AWESOME in the right relationship, and if you have that you have everything. All I am saying is that "love" is an artificial word and means different things to different people.

The deep feelings we have for those we are close to can feel extremely great. It can literally boost your immune system. All I was pointing out is it is ultimately bonding which is evolutionary.

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here by merely saying even the things we find awe inspiring are still natural. 

I simply have a problem with the word "unconditional", not evolutionary bonding itself. 

I deeply love my cat, but that isn't the same  deep love I had for my mother. 

So not really sure what you mean by this post.

My intense feelings for Brian are going to be a lifetime condition for me. Dewey too. And the intensification of my feelings for Dewey makes sense to me, it was something Dewey felt could happen if I ever had experiences of my own that mirrored his and that had shaped the person he was. I've managed to do that in spades, as they say. Losing Brian was a big part of that, and it ties both of them together, in a way.

(August 3, 2017 at 10:03 am)vorlon13 Wrote: My intense feelings for Brian are going to be a lifetime condition for me.  Dewey too.  And the intensification of my feelings for Dewey makes sense to me, it was something Dewey felt could happen if I ever had experiences of my own that mirrored his and that had shaped the person he was.  I've managed to do that in spades, as they say.  Losing Brian was a big part of that, and it ties both of them together, in a way.

Still confused, but now guessing the "Brian" you refer to is someone in your personal life? Because if you were talking about me, and I'd take it as some sort of sarcasm. More than one human has the name "Brian". 

I will myself always have very intense feelings for my Mom even though she is gone now. So that part I do get.

On this author's take of unconditional love, read pages 268 and 269.

Yeah, I figured everyone here was aware I fell in love with a man back in the 80s, named Brian, who fairly soon after I met him died of AIDS. No connection to you.

(August 3, 2017 at 10:19 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Yeah, I figured everyone here was aware I fell in love with a man back in the 80s, named Brian, who fairly soon after I met him died of AIDS.  No connection to you.

I kinda figured, "Brian" threw me off nothing more. 

That always sucks to see someone you love die. I can relate with my Mom. Never easy and you never really get over it, you simply cope.

(August 3, 2017 at 6:09 am)ignoramus Wrote: I think evolution has given a mother a fierce unconditional love for her babies.
Many mothers in nature will fight to the death to protect them.

Isn't the fact that her babies are her babies the reason why she loves them? This sounds like a condition to me.