Do tell.

When I was a Muslim there never was this strong concept of faith, I was merely taught that a god is self evident and as real as the stars and earth. I would not say all religions teach faith like Christians profess. This would be an oversimplification of what is at hand when it comes to the religious theists. Instead I would ask why is there so much certainty in god or can you imagine a world without it. Even when my own mother brought this up she said she would flat out murder people if there was no god yet in reality she is a very dishonest and manipulative person who uses a god to confirm her own immorality and not the reverse. So things like this bug me but not as much as whether faith is necessary for theists.

Everybody exhibits faith in their life, as we all do that the earth won't get hit with a meteor the next day. If we did not we would all be owning bunkers at the moment and only invest in subterranean real estate. Faith is not as real to Christians or Muslim as it is certainty in god's existence and presence in their life.

Muslims just like Christians take a god and reflec all their behaviour back to that imaginary being despite their own capabilities. I know Muslims who excel in mathematics and profound concepts but reflect this all to a deity but never to themselves. It makes you wonder why they studied so hard and worked for what they wanted to begin with if their "lives are in God's hands."

(July 29, 2017 at 6:11 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: A related question:

If evidence for god is in abundance, why is it necessary for Christianity to suffer yet another schism ??

IOW, why have so many denominations 'done it wrong' and done it wrong to such a spectacular degree so as  to inspire a segment of their flock to spin off and start their own denomination ??

Maybe  I could sharpen up that idea a bit:


If the evidence of God is so compelling and clear and convincing, why are there so many schisms ??

What is there to argue or fight over ??

(August 4, 2017 at 11:18 pm)ComradeMeow Wrote: When I was a Muslim there never was this strong concept of faith, I was merely taught that a god is self evident and as real as the stars and earth. I would not say all religions teach faith like Christians profess. This would be an oversimplification of what is at hand when it comes to the religious theists. Instead I would ask why is there so much certainty in god or can you imagine a world without it. Even when my own mother brought this up she said she would flat out murder people if there was no god yet in reality she is a very dishonest and manipulative person who uses a god to confirm her own immorality and not the reverse. So things like this bug me but not as much as whether faith is necessary for theists.

Everybody exhibits faith in their life, as we all do that the earth won't get hit with a meteor the next day. If we did not we would all be owning bunkers at the moment and only invest in subterranean real estate. Faith is not as real to Christians or Muslim as it is certainty in god's existence and presence in their life.

Muslims just like Christians take a god and reflec all their behaviour back to that imaginary being despite their own capabilities. I know Muslims who excel in mathematics and profound concepts but reflect this all to a deity but never to themselves. It makes you wonder why they studied so hard and worked for what they wanted to begin with if their "lives are in God's hands."

Pinpointed it. There was just something distractingly disingenuous in how you wrote on other threads and this is a glaring red flag (if it's unintentional, whatever, it's just a tad bothersome when it feels like I'm reading something written by two different people using the same name). But seriously, don't just make a bogus generalization like that. You're misusing faith just as badly as theists when they deliberately misrepresent the rationalistic perspective, and you're also wildly exaggerating that inappropriate example of how we (don't) use it anyway. That doesn't really square with the label of anti-theist under your name, if indeed that was the label you intended under the literal definition. Please reconsider your position on this completely false equivalency. It's disrespectful to any non-believer if not outright condescending.

(August 4, 2017 at 11:26 pm)vorlon13 Wrote:

(July 29, 2017 at 6:11 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: A related question:

If evidence for god is in abundance, why is it necessary for Christianity to suffer yet another schism ??

IOW, why have so many denominations 'done it wrong' and done it wrong to such a spectacular degree so as  to inspire a segment of their flock to spin off and start their own denomination ??

Maybe  I could sharpen up that idea a bit:


If the evidence of God is so compelling and clear and convincing, why are there so many schisms ??

What is there to argue or fight over ??

Why did Martin Luther stop being a Catholic and start his own franchise?  He wanted to be the boss.

(August 4, 2017 at 11:47 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(August 4, 2017 at 11:26 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Maybe  I could sharpen up that idea a bit:


If the evidence of God is so compelling and clear and convincing, why are there so many schisms ??

What is there to argue or fight over ??

Why did Martin Luther stop being a Catholic and start his own franchise?  He wanted to be the boss.

Who wouldn't? Joseph Smith made a good go of it.

I think a good question along these lines is, doesn't it seem like faith is needed only to believe that god is good rather than bad considering the entire bible reads more like his rap sheet? Because THAT is the one belief above all that requires the most denial of facts and to remain stubborn in one's faith even if the evidence of a god's existence was solid.

(August 4, 2017 at 11:47 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(August 4, 2017 at 11:18 pm)ComradeMeow Wrote: When I was a Muslim there never was this strong concept of faith, I was merely taught that a god is self evident and as real as the stars and earth. I would not say all religions teach faith like Christians profess. This would be an oversimplification of what is at hand when it comes to the religious theists. Instead I would ask why is there so much certainty in god or can you imagine a world without it. Even when my own mother brought this up she said she would flat out murder people if there was no god yet in reality she is a very dishonest and manipulative person who uses a god to confirm her own immorality and not the reverse. So things like this bug me but not as much as whether faith is necessary for theists.

Everybody exhibits faith in their life, as we all do that the earth won't get hit with a meteor the next day. If we did not we would all be owning bunkers at the moment and only invest in subterranean real estate. Faith is not as real to Christians or Muslim as it is certainty in god's existence and presence in their life.

Muslims just like Christians take a god and reflec all their behaviour back to that imaginary being despite their own capabilities. I know Muslims who excel in mathematics and profound concepts but reflect this all to a deity but never to themselves. It makes you wonder why they studied so hard and worked for what they wanted to begin with if their "lives are in God's hands."

Pinpointed it. There was just something distractingly disingenuous in how you wrote on other threads and this is a glaring red flag (if it's unintentional, whatever, it's just a tad bothersome when it feels like I'm reading something written by two different people using the same name). But seriously, don't just make a bogus generalization like that. You're misusing faith just as badly as theists when they deliberately misrepresent the rationalistic perspective, and you're also wildly exaggerating that inappropriate example of how we (don't) use it anyway. That doesn't really square with the label of anti-theist under your name, if indeed that was the label you intended under the literal definition. Please reconsider your position on this completely false equivalency. It's disrespectful to any non-believer if not outright condescending.

I have been posting on here for quite some time and even longer than you. On top of this is the fact that there is no difference in definition of faith unless you are using it to be polite towards the religious. Faith is merely a belief held without good evidence at its most crudest usage. 

And you seriously have no understanding of anti-theism in the slightest. I am more concerned with your understanding of atheism since so many are trying to make it a religion while telling the religious otherwise. Atheism is not a set of beliefs or an affiliation with an ideology, so stop preaching otherwise or go make your own religion but don't go telling other atheists or in my case anti-theists who and what they are. 

You are no different than an evangelical.

(August 5, 2017 at 12:12 am)ComradeMeow Wrote:

(August 4, 2017 at 11:47 pm)Astonished Wrote: Pinpointed it. There was just something distractingly disingenuous in how you wrote on other threads and this is a glaring red flag (if it's unintentional, whatever, it's just a tad bothersome when it feels like I'm reading something written by two different people using the same name). But seriously, don't just make a bogus generalization like that. You're misusing faith just as badly as theists when they deliberately misrepresent the rationalistic perspective, and you're also wildly exaggerating that inappropriate example of how we (don't) use it anyway. That doesn't really square with the label of anti-theist under your name, if indeed that was the label you intended under the literal definition. Please reconsider your position on this completely false equivalency. It's disrespectful to any non-believer if not outright condescending.

I have been posting on here for quite some time and even longer than you. On top of this is the fact that there is no difference in definition of faith unless you are using it to be polite towards the religious. Faith is merely a belief held without good evidence at its most crudest usage. 

And you seriously have no understanding of anti-theism in the slightest. I am more concerned with your understanding of atheism since so many are trying to make it a religion while telling the religious otherwise. Atheism is not a set of beliefs or an affiliation with an ideology, so stop preaching otherwise or go make your own religion but don't go telling other atheists or in my case anti-theists who and what they are. 

You are no different than an evangelical.

If you can define faith like that, how the hell did you manage to misuse it so badly in your post before? You can't seriously expect me not to be puzzled as all hell by your apparent misunderstanding, or to know if you were just being sarcastic. Again, this is like talking to two different people. Freaking bizarro world.

(August 5, 2017 at 12:20 am)Astonished Wrote:

(August 5, 2017 at 12:12 am)ComradeMeow Wrote: I have been posting on here for quite some time and even longer than you. On top of this is the fact that there is no difference in definition of faith unless you are using it to be polite towards the religious. Faith is merely a belief held without good evidence at its most crudest usage. 

And you seriously have no understanding of anti-theism in the slightest. I am more concerned with your understanding of atheism since so many are trying to make it a religion while telling the religious otherwise. Atheism is not a set of beliefs or an affiliation with an ideology, so stop preaching otherwise or go make your own religion but don't go telling other atheists or in my case anti-theists who and what they are. 

You are no different than an evangelical.

If you can define faith like that, how the hell did you manage to misuse it so badly in your post before? You can't seriously expect me not to be puzzled as all hell by your apparent misunderstanding, or to know if you were just being sarcastic. Again, this is like talking to two different people. Freaking bizarro world.

What is your definition of faith? I am all ears to hear it.

Also I used the same definition in my post before. I am merely addressing the amount of trust people have in the world despite how obviously dangerous it is. Even people like Dillahunty and Dawkins address this and they get no flak from other atheists. Everybody has or does exhibit some faith in the things they do. 

How can faith be this bothersome toward you? It is a word and I am using it without the baggage of religion. If I called atheism a faith that would be idiotic since it makes no claim or shows no trust without reason. But the fact that people have faith in something not religious really seems to disturb you and beg the question do you even know anything about theism or atheism.

You think because I am an antitheist I have to show irrational hate towards theists? 

I used to be a Muslim and left for that exact reason. The only reason I am an antitheist instead of an atheist is because of the serious danger one religion places the whole world in and as to how that bothers you baffles me. 

You just stated earlier that atheists have no faith and that faith is somehow a religion. How do you expect me to take you seriously?


I will grant the possible fact that maybe you are not reading my posts clearly or that I am not reading your posts clearly. BUT please clarify your position so I do not end up hating you for unfair reasons that could easily be solved. I don't wont to call you a troll if one of us misunderstood the other. 

(August 5, 2017 at 12:28 am)ComradeMeow Wrote:

(August 5, 2017 at 12:20 am)Astonished Wrote: If you can define faith like that, how the hell did you manage to misuse it so badly in your post before? You can't seriously expect me not to be puzzled as all hell by your apparent misunderstanding, or to know if you were just being sarcastic. Again, this is like talking to two different people. Freaking bizarro world.

What is your definition of faith? I am all ears to hear it.

Also I used the same definition in my post before. I am merely addressing the amount of trust people have in the world despite how obviously dangerous it is. Even people like Dillahunty and Dawkins address this and they get no flak from other atheists. Everybody has or does exhibit some faith in the things they do. 

How can faith be this bothersome toward you? It is a word and I am using it without the baggage of religion. If I called atheism a faith that would be idiotic since it makes no claim or shows no trust without reason. But the fact that people have faith in something not religious really seems to disturb you and beg the question do you even know anything about theism or atheism.

You think because I am an antitheist I have to show irrational hate towards theists? 

I used to be a Muslim and left for that exact reason. The only reason I am an antitheist instead of an atheist is because of the serious danger one religion places the whole world in and as to how that bothers you baffles me. 

You just stated earlier that atheists have no faith and that faith is somehow a religion. How do you expect me to take you seriously?


I will grant the possible fact that maybe you are not reading my posts clearly or that I am not reading your posts clearly. BUT please clarify your position so I do not end up hating you for unfair reasons that could easily be solved. I don't wont to call you a troll if one of us misunderstood the other. 

I think I see the misunderstanding here. I'm using the same definition you outlined in your previous post, but you're making an extreme exaggeration (as I already pointed out) and making a false equivalency between faith as an everyday thing and the trust we put in things based on evidence. I don't need to have faith in gravity for it to keep my ass firmly planted on the ground. We have satellites and all kinds of shit to help us figure out if there's a meteor coming to blow our planet to bits. We take what precautions we can afford to ensure that we can sleep at night without our houses being broken into by strangers and our throats slit while we're at our most vulnerable, and we can put trust in the fact that the odds of something like that happening are about as good as winning the lottery (just for illustration, it takes faith to believe you'll WIN the lottery, not to believe you won't win), and even if someone did break in, they're far more likely to just be there to steal shit and not just randomly harm someone for their sick pleasure.

So if you're saying everyone is motivated by completely irrational fears, you're bogus. We're aware of what can happen and how likely those things are to happen and how to deal with them accordingly. There's no reason to think it's MORE likely for that kind of shit to happen than not, if you manage to survive to be more than one day old. I'm 32, have been hit by reckless drivers while on my bike three times and walked away from each. I've only just taken to wearing a helmet because this most recent time is the only one where I've been injured severely enough to need to go to a hospital. And I've continued to ride the bike ever since. I have ZERO trust in drivers not to hit me but I don't have any other way of getting around and I'm extremely cautious because I understand how moronic people are the second they get behind the wheel of a car. But faith? No, dear, everything about that is EXTREMELY grounded in facts, reasonable expectations and statistics. Just like everything else in life that doesn't revolve around things like religion and other woo, the only places where faith is involved. So please, don't go throwing that word around like it doesn't mean what you seem to be able to describe.