(August 25, 2017 at 5:56 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Hmmmmm, I wonder ?

Would observing an eclipse closer to the center line of totality reduce the duration and 'intensity' of Bailey's Beads ??

I'm still amazed at the difference in them I saw between '79 and '17 and I'm trying to noodle out the why of it.

I saw Bailey's Beads and duration and intensity and decided not to look it up.
Turns out it was all very innocent. :-)

(August 25, 2017 at 6:42 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: It appears to me this would occur right on the edge of totality, you should see almost a half circle of bailey's beads right through the entire totality.

But if you're on the very edge of totality, your "entire eclipse" would be momentary, wouldn't it?  It's not like you would get minutes of half-of-the-moon Bailey's Beads, you'd only get them for the few moments that the moon just covers the sun.

I was so so so happy I got to see the Bailey's Beads as totality was ending.  I wanted to see it at the beginning, too, but I was wearing my eclipse glasses so I missed it...  Most beautiful thing I've ever seen.  That and totality itself, but dayum Bailey's Beads...

(August 26, 2017 at 9:57 am)Rahul Wrote: I dragged my family up to Nebraska to see the eclipse.  Thankfully a big break in the cloud cover allowed us to see the entire eclipse with no obstruction.  However, I do not remember seeing any Bailey's Beads.

The next one will be much easier to see though down here in Texas.  I'll wait and see what that one looks like.

Want a house guest in 2024?  I have two extra sets of eclipse glasses I can bring along, and a big sheet of the filter material for anyone else that needs them!  CRAFT PROJECT!!!


Wait...

What's the weather like in April where you are? Does it tend to be clear or do you get lots of cloud cover?

(August 28, 2017 at 11:00 am)Clueless Morgan Wrote: Want a house guest in 2024?  I have two extra sets of eclipse glasses I can bring along, and a big sheet of the filter material for anyone else that needs them!  CRAFT PROJECT!!!


Wait...

What's the weather like in April where you are? Does it tend to be clear or do you get lots of cloud cover?

It's not actually going over my house but rather curving around where I live.  I will either head west an hour or two or head northeast a few hours to my parent's house.  I'll be checking the weather daily leading up to the eclipse to see where best to go.

I did OK on my own seeing the 2017 eclipse, but for 2024, I think I would have a strong preference for a 'destination' style experience.  Traveling to a hotel with an organized program for the event and transportation to the viewing site, etc.

The stress this year of worrying about viewing conditions and traveling to a site took some of the blush from the experience.  Making the hard part somebody else's problem sounds very appealing now.


[edited to add:]

Just looked at map, and a hypothetical cruise from LA south to the eclipse path prior to landfall  would seem to fill the bill for me.

(August 28, 2017 at 11:40 am)vorlon13 Wrote: I did OK on my own seeing the 2017 eclipse, but for 2024, I think I would have a strong preference for a 'destination' style experience.  Traveling to a hotel with an organized program for the event and transportation to the viewing site, etc.

The stress this year of worrying about viewing conditions and traveling to a site took some of the blush from the experience.  Making the hard part somebody else's problem sounds very appealing now.

I didn't find the experience to be that stressful. I admit that I woke up a couple of times in the middle of the night and checked traffic cameras to see how bad things were, but they weren't bad at all and we totally got up at 5am and just headed south and found a bitchin' spot.

I feel like for 2024, though, I'll have to find some organized viewing party because I'll have to travel for the event and won't know the area.

Another thing about an organized experience I discovered in '79 is how much fun eclipse chasing folks are. And we had quite a few presentations on historical eclipses, the 3D geometry required of the sun, earth and moon for an eclipse to occur, and some fun activities (we were near Yellowstone !!).

I took a week off for that one, and it was a blast the whole time. Frank Drake and Jay Pasachoff were some of the presenters !!

(August 28, 2017 at 11:00 am)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

(August 25, 2017 at 6:42 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: It appears to me this would occur right on the edge of totality, you should see almost a half circle of bailey's beads right through the entire totality.

But if you're on the very edge of totality, your "entire eclipse" would be momentary, wouldn't it?  It's not like you would get minutes of half-of-the-moon Bailey's Beads, you'd only get them for the few moments that the moon just covers the sun.

I was so so so happy I got to see the Bailey's Beads as totality was ending.  I wanted to see it at the beginning, too, but I was wearing my eclipse glasses so I missed it...  Most beautiful thing I've ever seen.  That and totality itself, but dayum Bailey's Beads...

The bailey beads happen when the limb of the sun stick out from behind the edge of the moon by an amount less than the the height of the topographic variations on the limb of the moon.   Let's say the average topographic variation on the edge of the visible lunar disk is 2kms.   The moon sweeps around the earth at an average speed of 1.02km/s.   So bailey beads phenomenon at the leading and trailing edges of the lunar will last around 2 seconds each, max.

However, on the top and bottom edges of the lunar disk, the motion of the moon is orthogonal to the height of lunar topography.   So bailey beads can last much longer.   The closer you are to the edge of the totality track, the more bailey beads will manifest themselves closer to the top and bottom of the lunar disk rather than the leading and trailing edges of the lunar disk.

Also, keep in mind that although the moon is tidally locked and more or less keep the same face to the earth, the orbit of the moon around the earth has not yet been circularized. That is why sometimes there is annular eclipse, sometimes total eclipse. But it also means the rate of lunar rotation is not exactly the same as the rate of lunar revolution at every part of the lunar orbit. When viewed from the earth, the moon does not keep exactly the same face to the earth during the entire month. Instead the moon disk appears to be shaking its head and nodding with each revolution abouthe earth. So during each eclipse, we are not seeing exactly the same topographic features on the limb of the lunar disk. This means during some eclipse, the edge of the lunar disk might be more jagged, and thus more conducive to making bailey beads, than others.

(August 28, 2017 at 11:57 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(August 28, 2017 at 11:00 am)Clueless Morgan Wrote: But if you're on the very edge of totality, your "entire eclipse" would be momentary, wouldn't it?  It's not like you would get minutes of half-of-the-moon Bailey's Beads, you'd only get them for the few moments that the moon just covers the sun.

I was so so so happy I got to see the Bailey's Beads as totality was ending.  I wanted to see it at the beginning, too, but I was wearing my eclipse glasses so I missed it...  Most beautiful thing I've ever seen.  That and totality itself, but dayum Bailey's Beads...

The bailey beads happen when the limb of the sun stick out from behind the edge of the moon by an amount less than the the height of the topographic variations on the limb of the moon.   Let's say the average topographic variation on the edge of the visible lunar disk is 2kms.   The moon sweeps around the earth at an average speed of 1.02km/s.   So bailey beads phenomenon at the leading and trailing edges of the lunar will last around 2 seconds each, max.

However, on the top and bottom edges of the lunar disk, the motion of the moon is orthogonal to the height of lunar topography.   So bailey beads can last much longer.   The closer you are to the edge of the totality track, the more bailey beads will manifest themselves closer to the top and bottom of the lunar disk rather than the leading and trailing edges of the lunar disk.

Also, keep in mind that although the moon is tidally locked and more or less keep the same face to the earth, the orbit of the moon around the earth has not yet been circularized.  That is why sometimes there is annular eclipse, sometimes total eclipse.   But it also means the rate of lunar rotation is not exactly the same as the rate of lunar revolution at every part of the lunar orbit.   When viewed from the earth, the moon does not keep exactly the same face to the earth during the entire month.   Instead the moon disk appears to be shaking its head and nodding with each revolution abouthe earth.   So during each eclipse, we are not seeing exactly the same topographic features on the limb of the lunar disk.   This means during some eclipse, the edge of the lunar disk might be more jagged, and thus more conducive to making bailey beads, than others.

First, good explanation.

Second, I understand why Bailey's Beads happen, my question is that even if you assume perfect conditions to see the maximum amount of Bailey's Beads it's possible to see at once the maximum would still only last a few seconds because you're on the edge of totality and the further from the centerline of totality the shorter the eclipse experience is. Right?

For example: In Oregon, McMinnville was just a handful of miles inside the path of totality and they got something like 40 seconds of totality, while 20 miles south toward Salem totality lasted just over two minutes. If you're on the very "top" or "bottom" edge of totality you'd get seconds of totality and if you're going for maximizing Bailey's Beads around the rim of the moon you'd be on the very very top or bottom edges of totality, so you'd get a handful of seconds of them.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

Is there a circumstance where you could get, let's say, 30 seconds of Bailey's Beads?

(August 28, 2017 at 12:48 pm)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

(August 28, 2017 at 11:57 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: The bailey beads happen when the limb of the sun stick out from behind the edge of the moon by an amount less than the the height of the topographic variations on the limb of the moon.   Let's say the average topographic variation on the edge of the visible lunar disk is 2kms.   The moon sweeps around the earth at an average speed of 1.02km/s.   The bailey beads phenomenon at the leading and trailing edges of the lunar will last around 2 seconds each, max.

However, on the top and bottom edges of the lunar disk, the motion of the moon is orthogonal to the height of lunar topography.   So bailey beads can last much longer.   The closer you are to the edge of the totality track, the more bailey beads will manifest themselves closer to the top and bottom of the lunar disk rather than the leading and trailing edges of the lunar disk.

Also, keep in mind that although the moon is tidally locked and more or less keep the same face to the earth, the orbit of the moon around the earth has not yet been circularized.  That is why sometimes there is annular eclipse, sometimes total eclipse.   But it also means the rate of lunar rotation is not exactly the same as the rate of lunar revolution at every part of the lunar orbit.   When viewed from the earth, the moon does not keep exactly the same face to the earth during the entire month.   Instead the moon disk appears to be shaking its head and nodding with each revolution abouthe earth.   So during each eclipse, we are not seeing exactly the same topographic features on the limb of the lunar disk.   This means during some eclipse, the edge of the lunar disk might be more jagged, and thus more conducive to making bailey beads, than others.

First, good explanation.

Second, I understand why Bailey's Beads happen, my question is that even if you assume perfect conditions to see the maximum amount of Bailey's Beads it's possible to see at once the maximum would still only last a few seconds because you're on the edge of totality and the further from the centerline of totality the shorter the eclipse experience is.  Right?

For example: In Oregon, McMinnville was just a handful of miles inside the path of totality and they got something like 40 seconds of totality, while 20 miles south toward Salem totality lasted just over two minutes.  If you're on the very "top" or "bottom" edge of totality you'd get seconds of totality and if you're going for maximizing Bailey's Beads around the rim of the moon you'd be on the very very top or bottom edges of totality, so you'd get a handful of seconds of them.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

Is there a circumstance where you could get, let's say, 30 seconds of Bailey's Beads?

Well, assuming the same 2km roughness to the edge of lunar disk.   lunar curvature is about 2 Kms for every 70 Kms.  So the moon needs to move 70kms in its orbit about the earth for the top and bottom of the lunar disk to move up and down by 2 Kms.    So in theory, if you are right on the edge of totality track, the bailey bead phenomenon on the very top or bottom of the lunar disk can last up to around 70 seconds.

The problem is as you pointed out, totality doesn't last that long at the edge of the track   In principle, you can have bailey beads on the top and bottom of the lunar disk even when the eclipse is not quite in totality, because the limb of the sun at top and bottom may only shine through gaps in lunar terrain at the top or bottom of the disk, but other parts may already emerges from behind the lunar disk at the leading or trailing edge of the lunar disk.  But in reality in such circumstances the bailey beads will be lost in the glare of the part of the sun not in eclipse.

So the longest visible bailey bead phenomenon is limited by the length of totality.   So during a total eclipse, the length of bailey bead phenomenon will get shorter as one approaches the center of totality track, while the length of totality will get shorter as one approach the edge of the totality track.   The longest bailey bead phoenomeon will be where the two duration curves intersects.

(August 28, 2017 at 11:44 am)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

(August 28, 2017 at 11:40 am)vorlon13 Wrote: I did OK on my own seeing the 2017 eclipse, but for 2024, I think I would have a strong preference for a 'destination' style experience.  Traveling to a hotel with an organized program for the event and transportation to the viewing site, etc.

The stress this year of worrying about viewing conditions and traveling to a site took some of the blush from the experience.  Making the hard part somebody else's problem sounds very appealing now.

I didn't find the experience to be that stressful.  I admit that I woke up a couple of times in the middle of the night and checked traffic cameras to see how bad things were, but they weren't bad at all and we totally got up at 5am and just headed south and found a bitchin' spot.

Our experience wasn't that stressful. We drove down the afternoon before, had a leisurely breakfast the next day, and set up in my dad's driveway. The only pre-eclipse stress was the realization that fog started rolling in anew a few minutes after it started. We packed up and started heading to Grand Ronde to get above the cloud layer, but turned back shortly after when the fog cleared. The rest of the eclipse went off without a hitch.

Even the drive back was pretty mild. Google directed us around the worst traffic, which ended up routing us over about 8 miles of unpaved - but empty - road.