(August 27, 2017 at 9:05 pm)CatholicDefende Wrote: 1. He shut down the lustful filthy Berlin nightclub scene. Before the Big H came on the scene Berlin was a den of filth and sin, with hookers,drag shows and "gay" clubs being all the rage. Watch "Cabaret" to get the full story.

I saw "Cabaret" a few times. Quaint movie. I guess the church and the Nazi's (being death cults) could not bear to see people having fun in life. Here is a scene from "Cabaret". Looks like there having a great time:. Much better than goosestepping or confessing:

(August 29, 2017 at 12:35 am)Fireball Wrote:

(August 29, 2017 at 12:11 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: Catholic enough for German cardinals to give Nazi salutes and the Pope to see him as someone without enough objectionable qualities to openly challenge, much less excommunicate, as an earlier pope did to Napoleon.


But to pose the question properly so we are clear as who was trying to please and fit in with who, we should not ask how Catholic was Hitler.   The proper question is how Nazi was the Catholic Church.    

Certainly it was not as if Hitler the little man needed to fit in a great and universal church.  It was the cowering little church that was desperately trying to make sure it did fit in with the third Reich.   You would be very wrong to think God's viceroy on earth and heir to St. Peter would have dared to incur the ire of Hitler by saying Der Fuhrer was not catholic enough.

"Cowering Little Church"?!? FFS man, look at the damage that that institution has done to people over the millenia! The RCC is a monster that needs eradicating. Of course, if you were an advocate of population control, and had an idea of which population needed controlling... :raised brow:

Tells you a lot how overreaching in its claim of moral authority and overarchingly abusive the church inevitably always was whenever it had free rein, and yet what sniveling and favor currying coward it becomes when confronted by an bullying evil matching its own.

I think it's fair to say that Hitler was a Catholic in the same way Saddam Hussein was a Muslim.

Saddam was friendly toward the Sunni Islamic faith generally and made a show (especially in his final years) of being a good True Muslim TM.

But his faith life was a joke. He and his sons lived a life of decadence and extravagance, drank whiskey and wine, had many mistresses, did not force women into the hijab and out of the workforce, and did not mind that one his closest associates, Tariq Aziz was a Christian.

Hitler was tolerant and even favorable toward Catholicism and general Christianity at times, but it seems his spiritual life was nil. What bible study were he and Eva part of again?

(August 28, 2017 at 11:40 pm)CatholicDefender Wrote: Here is all Im saying.

I don't think Hitler's Catholicism was that important to him.

I think this mainly because he seemed disinterested in the faith itself and made little effort to try to convert people to the One true faith.

I concede that Pius XII and the German Hierarchy did little to oppose the Nuremberg laws and speak out on mistreatment of Jews.

Yet even at it's worst the Catholic Church has never approved of racial supremacy or any notion of making a mere mortal into a deity like figure.

While Pius XII wasn't exactly the Jews best friend, I don't think Hitler saw him as his own friend either.

I am uncertain exactly what Hitler's thoughts on the matter is (it is different things to different people) but many high ranking Nazis (Bormann, Goebbels,Rosenburg among others) saw the Church in much the same way as many see it. An archaic, backward institution that had somewhat retarded the growth and development of the Germanic race. All the Nazis were already suspicious of a powerful transnational entity that they could not control and which owed no allegiance to them.

Observe these horrid pics from Der Sturmer

1. http://research.calvin.edu/german-propag...er/ds4.jpg

This is a cartoon criticizing German women who felt God's call. "She belongs to Church, she belongs to the devil, both are lost to the German race!"

2. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9CwLw9kpS5E/SO...lismus.jpg

This one appears to state that Pacelli was offering support to the Jews (the large nosed, chubby Jewess appears to represent Jewry.)

3. https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ImqvJjFozjg/V...6010_n.jpg

This disgusting Nazi slander appears to lump in political Catholicism with the forces of Jewry and Bolshevism!

The fact that your church couldn't even be bothered to excommunicate him says all I need to hear. If they disapproved Hitler's actions they should have made that clear and dissociated themselves from him.

^ Pretty sure Pius XII was worried about not being killed or turned into a lampshade/bar of soap as well as stopping Catholics from being persecuted.

So he instead just criticized the regime and its policies in veiled ways.

(August 29, 2017 at 2:03 pm)CatholicDefender Wrote: ^ Pretty sure Pius XII was worried about not being killed or turned into a lampshade/bar of soap as well as stopping Catholics from being persecuted.

So he instead just criticized the regime and its policies in veiled ways.

So veiled the Nazis were able to claim, without contradiction from the pope, that the pope praised Hitler and the Nazi regime and supported its aims,  even as German cardinals offered the Nazi salute and redoubled dedication to the German war effort.   With critics like this, who needs sycophantic minions?

(August 29, 2017 at 1:34 pm)CatholicDefender Wrote: I think it's fair to say that Hitler was a Catholic in the same way Saddam Hussein was a Muslim.

Saddam was friendly toward the Sunni Islamic faith generally and made a show (especially in his final years) of being a good True Muslim TM.

But his faith life was a joke. He and his sons lived a life of decadence and extravagance, drank whiskey and wine, had many mistresses, did not force women into the hijab and out of the workforce, and did not mind that one his closest associates, Tariq Aziz was a Christian.

Hitler was tolerant and even favorable toward Catholicism and general Christianity at times, but it seems his spiritual life was nil. What bible study were he and Eva part of again?

No sorry, doesn't work like that. How you wish someone else whom falls under the same label as you does not change the thoughts in their heads.

Hitler went to his death believing in providence and a divine higher power, he always believed. And again, arguing over his personal beliefs, which can only be argued as unique to him, still did not change the fact he DID convince a Christian majority Germany to follow him.

No different than knowing Castro's Cuba is a majority Catholic. Dictators don't single out religion, they use it too, what they all do is silence anyone who tries to dissent.

No different than saying both Bin Laden and Malala have the same God, same prophet and same holy book. None of what I just said favors a monster like Bin Laden, just a statement of fact that both use the same book to come to completely different conclusions.

I include atheists in that too. Stalin was an atheist, I won't dodge that fact. But just because I wouldn't want other atheists to behave that way doesn't mean he was not. Stalin was a monster because he wanted power, just like Hitler just like Castro, but all of them DID manipulate the masses with religion regardless of their own personal views.

What most humans fail to realize, not just Christians, but Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists too, is that our species capability for either cruelty or compassion isn't being handed to us from above, but our behaviors good or bad, have always been in us.

Hitler had a personal belief but he believed in his own personal interpretation as much as Martin Luther King. Sure I will value King and hate Hitler, but they still both believed in a God.

Point being, you the individual are either good or bad. You the individual and nothing is magic about that. Holy writings don't have magic powers. Humans help humans or humans hurt other humans, but there is no patent owned on our species morality, no religion invented it, and no religion owns it. Every nation, friend or foe has hospitals and prisons.

King was a great and empathetic man. Malala is a great and empathetic woman. Ann Frank was a great and empathetic girl. But their compassion and empathy was not handed to them, it was already in them. Just like Katherine Hepburn was an atheist, she too was a very compassionate person. 

You are not good because you are Catholic or Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or even atheist. You are good because our species has always had that ability.

Quote:As a devout Catholic, I have some real problems with people saying Hitler was "one of us"

Vegetarians have the same problem.  They, like you, will have to learn to fucking get over it.

(August 29, 2017 at 2:03 pm)CatholicDefender Wrote: ^ Pretty sure Pius XII was worried about not being killed or turned into a lampshade/bar of soap as well as stopping Catholics from being persecuted.

So he instead just criticized the regime and its policies in veiled ways.

I have sympathy for fearful people who fail to speak out boldly in dark times. I've often wondered if I would have the courage in such circumstances. I hope so, but I don't know.

But for the head of a religion that has spent centuries celebrating the faith and courage of its martyrs (not to mention the alleged self-sacrifice of Christ) to do anything less than take the lead in publicly condemning Hitler and his regime is despicable.

That goes for every religious leader who claimed to speak on Jesus' behalf.

(August 29, 2017 at 2:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:As a devout Catholic, I have some real problems with people saying Hitler was "one of us"

Vegetarians have the same problem.  They, like you, will have to learn to fucking get over it.

Yep and Stalin was an atheist but unlike our theist friend here, I won't deny it. But in accepting he was, does not mean I value monsters like him, it just means denying that fact would be delusional.

It simply bothers theists that an atheist can do good and be good. They need to feel entitled as if they own a patent on goodness. But to be fair, all religions have followers that feel this way.