(September 21, 2017 at 5:07 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 4:21 pm)Drich Wrote: lol... Someone doesn't know the socioeconomic placement the sum total of African ran countries had before colonialism. Again at best most countries were akin to what a bronze age city state would look like. the vast majority were still well placed in the stone age.

You are right to say the african countries did not ever develop, but again they never left the stone age for the 10's of thousands of years that preceded colonialism either. (there was a reason colonialists were shoot tribes men with muskets, that were armed with cows hide shields and stone tipped spears.)

it is not a fault or failing of a content of people. The development of the "africa"/nations is only less developed when you compare it to modern society. They were simply on a different path, one that lent itself to the status quo rather than change.

A different path . . . lol . . . and someone else hasn't read Guns, Germs, and Steel. Eurasian ascendancy was the outcome of a cumulative process that didn't happen in a vacuum. If a people has a decisive head start in terms of certain useful resources (e.g., flora and fauna that easily lend themselves to domestication) or benefit from surroundings that favor the spread of ideas and goods, and then have to innovate to overcome other challenges their environments impose on them, then it shouldn't come as a great surprise that they tend to dominate other peoples when their paths cross. (Of course, a population -- long inured -- carrying virulent diseases that other people lack resistance to doesn't hurt either.)

So yeah, sub-Saharan Africa didn't develop along the same lines as Europe. The question is, to what do you attribute the difference? Differences in racial/ethnic intelligence levels? A predilection for the status quo rather than change? If this last, how do you determine that, and how do you account for the fact that almost every "backward" people, upon coming into contact with materially superior outsiders, almost immediately seek to acquire this better technology for their own use? Apparently, they had no trouble recognizing a good thing when they saw it and didn't mind such change.

And don't underestimate the effects of colonialism in shaping the destinies of many of these nations. Set arbitrary national borders, plunder a land long enough, pit tribes against each other, infantilize the "natives" and then what? Pretend to be surprised when things are fucked up when you leave or finally are chased out?

I don't think you guys are read up on colonialism as you think.. it wasn't just to inject "white people into foreign lands" it was to assimilate the indigiousness population as well. whether that be though slavery or better yet an educated who could plant trap weave and pay tax. So these colonists fast tracked a stone age people to a preindustrial people. those who could not be taught were enslaved. Some took to it created a life and or even moved on. It took waring clans and turned them into towns and cities. Those are the nations who are doing the BEST today albeit they also are all guilty of commiting crimes against humanity to stay in power. Here's the thing Eurpoe did not colonize all of africa. Now look at the bits it didn't. are the better or worse when compared to the European model of modern society? (Some are still head hunting/canibles)

You asked what i attributed this change to.

IDK. Who to say that their way of life is not better? we have comparing the european way t their way and look what we have done according to some to our climbate or air our resurces our bodiesminds and ourselves... maybe a simple warrior's life is for the best, or maybe in that there lies your answer in what makes some of us move on while other stay behind.

maybe staying and doing what we always do on a Friday night is not my gig. maybe I want to see what is going on over in that place on a friday night. and then like you first paragraph suggests it is easier for some to be more effective warriors. and so on.

(September 21, 2017 at 2:26 pm)Drich Wrote:

(September 20, 2017 at 2:49 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Drich :

Regardless of the cultural progress of continental Africa during the years of the European/ American slave trade era, do you feel that at any point slavery and the later Jim Crow era were "good' for the social progress of blacks?

Do you think over 300 years of these humanitarian abominations have any lasting effects in our society? Anything that we still need to overcome?

slavery is not a good nor a bad thing, inherently. it is how people use slaves, how slaves are obtained and how they are kept that evil can be fund. what most of you forget is most of the world elects slavery over the alternative, even today!

That said this one ear of american History was for the popular understood part an exercise in evil. But at the same time not all slave owers were evil nor where they hated by their slaves. if you goto Monticello.org you can read about jefferson and his wonderful relationship he had with his slaves. In the deep south there were some examples of slaves being welcomed into families like blood brothers on smaller farms and even plantations (which is where the term uncle tom came from) those men were loved like brothers and were even left freedom and land where it was allowed.

Then there were the mega plantations. that span states and out of a hand full of those came America's legacy. The 'roots' understanding of slavery. Most slave owners hated these mega plantations as one the kept the prices low on whatever they grew, but two often would treat white land owners of smaller plantations and farm as they would a slave. From what I understand this mega plantation/family only held upto 1/3 of all the slaves during America's entire slave trading days.

But that's not what sells books and movies is it?

Which brings us to the civil war. a war fought over the use of slaves not the freedom of slaves.

The war was started by these mega plantation owners wanting to expand west of the Mississippi and take their slaves into the mid west/plain states and farm out there and into texas and raise cattle. The nothern states wanted no part of that as they need that teritory to be slave free so the white immigrants could be push west into paying jobs. (lincolon Himself explains this in a short letter explain about 100 days before the emancipation proclamation he did not care if it meant a promise to the south for a 1000 years that they could keep their slaves, or he did not care if they were all set free. He just wanted this war to come to an end one way or another. So they were set free and if he had not died they/the slaves ALL would have been sent back to africa/liberia to be exact as several dozen ship loads were sent from here to there as apart of his repatriation act.

I tell you all of that to have you look at the conditions in liberia and the attitudes in liberia/how they feel about the US and you tell me if there should have been 300 years of anything for anyone to over come.

Do you know why black people and korean people do not get along? (at least from the korean side?)
Because a korean man can come here wearing the stripes of slavery. (meaning they man could have been a literal slave himself in that country at one point or like me be one generation removed from a relative who was a slave, unlike black people who can if ever know the names/back story/ have a specific reason to be angry) don't speak the language, can be hated, beat and mistreated by whites open a business and thrive anywhere in this country dispelling the idea that oppression, humanitarian abominations, are objectives a race of people have to over come to be successful.

What's the difference? social infrastructure. Korean Chinese Japanese really all modern cultures, meaning cultures who have naturally progressed through their own version of the stone age, bronze age iron age preindustrial and industrial eras. A people who pass though These era all add to infrastructure/industriousness in the heart and minds of any member of those communities.

Black american slaves were in most cases taken out of a pre bronze age environment and made to work/live in a pre industrial age soceity

You did not answer my questions. Instead you try to give me a history lesson.

(September 21, 2017 at 5:53 pm)chimp3 Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 2:26 pm)Drich Wrote: slavery is not a good nor a bad thing, inherently. it is how people use slaves, how slaves are obtained and how they are kept that evil can be fund. what most of you forget is most of the world elects slavery over the alternative, even today!

That said this one ear of american History was for the popular understood part an exercise in evil. But at the same time not all slave owers were evil nor where they hated by their slaves. if you goto Monticello.org you can read about jefferson and his wonderful relationship he had with his slaves. In the deep south there were some examples of slaves being welcomed into families like blood brothers on smaller farms and even plantations (which is where the term uncle tom came from) those men were loved like brothers and were even left freedom and land where it was allowed.

Then there were the mega plantations. that span states and out of a hand full of those came America's legacy. The 'roots' understanding of slavery. Most slave owners hated these mega plantations as one the kept the prices low on whatever they grew, but two often would treat white land owners of smaller plantations and farm as they would a slave. From what I understand this mega plantation/family only held upto 1/3 of all the slaves during America's entire slave trading days.

But that's not what sells books and movies is it?

Which brings us to the civil war. a war fought over the use of slaves not the freedom of slaves.

The war was started by these mega plantation owners wanting to expand west of the Mississippi and take their slaves into the mid west/plain states and farm out there and into texas and raise cattle. The nothern states wanted no part of that as they need that teritory to be slave free so the white immigrants could be push west into paying jobs. (lincolon Himself explains this in a short letter explain about 100 days before the emancipation proclamation he did not care if it meant a promise to the south for a 1000 years that they could keep their slaves, or he did not care if they were all set free. He just wanted this war to come to an end one way or another. So they were set free and if he had not died they/the slaves ALL would have been sent back to africa/liberia to be exact as several dozen ship loads were sent from here to there as apart of his repatriation act.

I tell you all of that to have you look at the conditions in liberia and the attitudes in liberia/how they feel about the US and you tell me if there should have been 300 years of anything for anyone to over come.

Do you know why black people and korean people do not get along? (at least from the korean side?)
Because a korean man can come here wearing the stripes of slavery. (meaning they man could have been a literal slave himself in that country at one point or like me be one generation removed from a relative who was a slave, unlike black people who can if ever know the names/back story/ have a specific reason to be angry) don't speak the language, can be hated, beat and mistreated by whites open a business and thrive anywhere in this country dispelling the idea that oppression, humanitarian abominations, are objectives a race of people have to over come to be successful.

What's the difference? social infrastructure. Korean Chinese Japanese really all modern cultures, meaning cultures who have naturally progressed through their own version of the stone age, bronze age iron age preindustrial and industrial eras. A people who pass though These era all add to infrastructure/industriousness in the heart and minds of any member of those communities.

Black american slaves were in most cases taken out of a pre bronze age environment and made to work/live in a pre industrial age soceity

You did not answer my questions. Instead you try to give me a history lesson.

A dumb, inaccurate ,racist , history lesson

(September 20, 2017 at 12:41 pm)Drich Wrote: So why aren't black people as an stand alone group seen as equals? The same reason Koreans who support the Kim regime are not seen as equals, for the same reason white who support communism or Nazi socialism are not seen as equals or any other race who does not support America first, or anyone who only seeks to take from this country and not put back, those who seek to hurt or those who seek a broader national identity first. will never be seen as equal. The thing is 'young people are generally entitled to just take and have things their way and not play the game like everyone else.

Piss off mate, you're not my equal.

Nor mine

What a strange and disturbing universe you must live in Drich.

Well - he believes in god, so....

(September 21, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 3:06 pm)Astreja Wrote: That isn't a shovel Drich is using -- it's a razzafracking backhoe.

lol, Drich in action:

I love how stupid Drich is to kudos a post insulting him. And not for the first time either.

(September 21, 2017 at 5:53 pm)chimp3 Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 2:26 pm)Drich Wrote: slavery is not a good nor a bad thing, inherently. it is how people use slaves, how slaves are obtained and how they are kept that evil can be fund. what most of you forget is most of the world elects slavery over the alternative, even today!

That said this one ear of american History was for the popular understood part an exercise in evil. But at the same time not all slave owers were evil nor where they hated by their slaves. if you goto Monticello.org you can read about jefferson and his wonderful relationship he had with his slaves. In the deep south there were some examples of slaves being welcomed into families like blood brothers on smaller farms and even plantations (which is where the term uncle tom came from) those men were loved like brothers and were even left freedom and land where it was allowed.

Then there were the mega plantations. that span states and out of a hand full of those came America's legacy. The 'roots' understanding of slavery. Most slave owners hated these mega plantations as one the kept the prices low on whatever they grew, but two often would treat white land owners of smaller plantations and farm as they would a slave. From what I understand this mega plantation/family only held upto 1/3 of all the slaves during America's entire slave trading days.

But that's not what sells books and movies is it?

Which brings us to the civil war. a war fought over the use of slaves not the freedom of slaves.

The war was started by these mega plantation owners wanting to expand west of the Mississippi and take their slaves into the mid west/plain states and farm out there and into texas and raise cattle. The nothern states wanted no part of that as they need that teritory to be slave free so the white immigrants could be push west into paying jobs. (lincolon Himself explains this in a short letter explain about 100 days before the emancipation proclamation he did not care if it meant a promise to the south for a 1000 years that they could keep their slaves, or he did not care if they were all set free. He just wanted this war to come to an end one way or another. So they were set free and if he had not died they/the slaves ALL would have been sent back to africa/liberia to be exact as several dozen ship loads were sent from here to there as apart of his repatriation act.

I tell you all of that to have you look at the conditions in liberia and the attitudes in liberia/how they feel about the US and you tell me if there should have been 300 years of anything for anyone to over come.

Do you know why black people and korean people do not get along? (at least from the korean side?)
Because a korean man can come here wearing the stripes of slavery. (meaning they man could have been a literal slave himself in that country at one point or like me be one generation removed from a relative who was a slave, unlike black people who can if ever know the names/back story/ have a specific reason to be angry) don't speak the language, can be hated, beat and mistreated by whites open a business and thrive anywhere in this country dispelling the idea that oppression, humanitarian abominations, are objectives a race of people have to over come to be successful.

What's the difference? social infrastructure. Korean Chinese Japanese really all modern cultures, meaning cultures who have naturally progressed through their own version of the stone age, bronze age iron age preindustrial and industrial eras. A people who pass though These era all add to infrastructure/industriousness in the heart and minds of any member of those communities.

Black american slaves were in most cases taken out of a pre bronze age environment and made to work/live in a pre industrial age soceity

You did not answer my questions. Instead you try to give me a history lesson.

The history lesson was your answer.
1) I identify slavery as being a morally neutral institution
2) american slavery was not across the board "roots bad" Underscoring point one in history there are both good and bad examples of slavery
3) Even if it were "roots bad," in Korean people migrating to the US after 1950 we have examples of people who across the board had it "roots bad" when imperial Japan annexed the Korean peninsula after WWI, Kill all the royal families enslaved their children and put them to work in their own family's farms for 50+ years and still they Meaning the generation who were enslaved (being hated by the americans (back and white) who were at war with them) had nothing to over come outside their own pride. Which is why so many come here and by even our own standard become successful.

So you see I did answer your question with a history lesson. why? because you can't argue historical fact. Slavery doesn't/didn't just touch black skin. yet black people seem to be stuck on it, while other races simply move past it. again why? Harper Lee has a great answer.

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(September 21, 2017 at 6:50 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 5:53 pm)chimp3 Wrote: You did not answer my questions. Instead you try to give me a history lesson.

A dumb, inaccurate ,racist , history lesson

can you show me where my facts are untrue?

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(September 21, 2017 at 7:27 pm)Aegon Wrote:

(September 20, 2017 at 12:41 pm)Drich Wrote: So why aren't black people as an stand alone group seen as equals? The same reason Koreans who support the Kim regime are not seen as equals, for the same reason white who support communism or Nazi socialism are not seen as equals or any other race who does not support America first, or anyone who only seeks to take from this country and not put back, those who seek to hurt or those who seek a broader national identity first. will never be seen as equal. The thing is 'young people are generally entitled to just take and have things their way and not play the game like everyone else.

Piss off mate, you're   not my equal.

ah, duh...

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(September 22, 2017 at 4:19 am)Javaman Wrote: What a strange and disturbing universe you must live in Drich.

how so?

(September 22, 2017 at 6:02 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 4:53 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: lol, Drich in action:

I love how stupid Drich is to kudos a post insulting him. And not for the first time either.

I love how "stumped"-alumpacus thinks that his narrow minded POV can only be the only POV when he posts a simple picture.

For instance stumpy may see an impossible situation to get out of, while i see an opportunity to engage someone on a different plan of thought.

Stumps: "digging a hole he can't get out of"

Me: Not my hole. As such not afraid to talk about it.