(September 28, 2017 at 9:01 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 28, 2017 at 8:38 am)mh.brewer Wrote: Not saying that it's not principled. Just saying that I don't think the flag/anthem was not the initial motivation, even though it fits into the protest agenda.

I'd imagine that when it comes to Kaepernick's motivations, he's the authority.

I agree. However, I don't think bringing the flag/anthem into to mix is helping his position for protest of "oppression of people of color and ongoing issues with police brutality". Here's why. Most of the unthinking people will hear/think he's saying fuck  all of america (did I hear that somewhere?) and not just fuck what's wrong with/in america. Unthinking Trump is a great example basically stating that Kaep is unamerican which is completely not true. He's more american by protesting. 

What's happened after that? Now the conversation has devolved into the right to protest, an attack on football/sports and a silly tradition. I haven't heard much about police brutality lately, have you? Oppression of people of color is still in the debate but has been diluted by this love it or leave it crap over the flag. To me it feels like this has become more about support the individuals right to protest (which is good in and of itself) and less stop oppression of people of color.  

Just my opinion.

(September 28, 2017 at 9:52 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(September 28, 2017 at 9:01 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I'd imagine that when it comes to Kaepernick's motivations, he's the authority.

I agree. However, I don't think bringing the flag/anthem into to mix is helping his position for protest of "oppression of people of color and ongoing issues with police brutality". Here's why. Most of the unthinking people will hear/think he's saying fuck  all of america (did I hear that somewhere?) and not just fuck what's wrong with/in america. Unthinking Trump is a great example basically stating that Kaep is unamerican which is completely not true. He's more american by protesting. 

What's happened after that? Now the conversation has devolved into the right to protest, an attack on football/sports and a silly tradition. I haven't heard much about police brutality lately, have you? Oppression of people of color is still in the debate but has been diluted by this love it or leave it crap over the flag. To me it feels like this has become more about support the individuals right to protest (which is good in and of itself) and less stop oppression of people of color.  

Just my opinion.

The same attacks, and dilution, happened with BLM, with the hippies and civil-rights activists in the 60s, etc etc. It's the American way, and it doesn't really matter which arena or modality Kaepernick had chosen. Not his fault the public are so easily misled.

(September 28, 2017 at 8:38 am)mh.brewer Wrote: Hey, I agree, that one stanza(?) is bad/racist. Maybe that's why most don't know it, including me until now. Once they do know and still don't acknowledge then I'd think they are racist. But prior to that, no, just ignorant, same as with a lot of the religious. 

Let me ask, can a racist or the religious do something good? In part or in whole, especially if it has little or nothing to do with race or religion?

I don't mean the people are racist I mean the song is racist. It remains racist even if the ones singing parts of it are ignorant to it being so. That doesn't make THEM racist is just means the song is. That's why I think we should change it. It is a pretty song by itself but now that I know why he wrote it the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

And now the latest distraction. Why is Kaep not on the cover of SI.

(September 28, 2017 at 10:01 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 28, 2017 at 9:52 am)mh.brewer Wrote: I agree. However, I don't think bringing the flag/anthem into to mix is helping his position for protest of "oppression of people of color and ongoing issues with police brutality". Here's why. Most of the unthinking people will hear/think he's saying fuck  all of america (did I hear that somewhere?) and not just fuck what's wrong with/in america. Unthinking Trump is a great example basically stating that Kaep is unamerican which is completely not true. He's more american by protesting. 

What's happened after that? Now the conversation has devolved into the right to protest, an attack on football/sports and a silly tradition. I haven't heard much about police brutality lately, have you? Oppression of people of color is still in the debate but has been diluted by this love it or leave it crap over the flag. To me it feels like this has become more about support the individuals right to protest (which is good in and of itself) and less stop oppression of people of color.  

Just my opinion.

The same attacks, and dilution, happened with BLM, with the hippies and civil-rights activists in the 60s, etc etc. It's the American way, and it doesn't really matter which arena or modality Kaepernick had chosen. Not his fault the public are so easily misled.

Instead of backpeddling which cuts Kaep's protest off at the knees, why not just stand the ground.  Say "Did your uncle give his life so that black people could be beaten, harassed, and shot in the streets?  Fuck no (results vary based on the uncle, I suppose).  Some people are taking your uncle's sacrifice and using it for terrible things.  You should be pissed too!"  It's like giving to a charity, and finding out they spent a bunch of money renting a private plane.

Unfortunately, why a person served has little bearing on how the fruits of that service is applied.  The right to kneel is nice,  but it's small potatoes.  The bang for the sacrifice buck there is kind of lousy.  I think people who served should be mad they aren't getting more for their time/service/sacrifice.

The outrage is because a young black man dared to speak up about something, when he wasn't a conservatively religious lunatic (e.g. Ben Carson)

Hmm. Given the history of racism and slavery in usa you'd think people would notice when govt officials are kinda sorta targeting Blacks and other minorities.. Like for one second imagine German police specifically targeting Jews, killing Jews and getting away with it. Imagine if German prisons were crowded with Jews.. Imagine if a cop said "we only kill jews"... What if the German president spoke against a jew protesting the killing and cruel treatment of Jews by calling him a sob, won't anyone with a sprinkle of common sense find something wrong there? . Usa does have a racism problem but many people refuse to even talk about it or get angry when someone else talk about it calling it a 'political issue'. I think I remember seeing a video of a cop stopping a car driven by a black woman and in the middle of the road her legs are kept apart and some officers inspect her v to find...drugs... Like holy shit dude.. I know there are certain people reading this that don't exactly think there's a racism problem but are afraid to speak out because they fear being labeled a racist..i want these people to just read and go through these posts and hopefully change their minds

(September 27, 2017 at 8:59 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: You know, I understand that the term "virtue signalling" is out of favour because there's people who use it as an excuse to dismiss ANY sort of morality that doesn't involve being a racist creature from the Id, but is there really a better term for the sort of conspicuous, but empty, display of morality that does nothing but make the participants look better, like, among the many examples to list, insisting on players in a football game standing for the national anthem kneeling during the national anthem?

Works both ways.

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(September 27, 2017 at 8:30 am)pool the matey Wrote: I don't live in united states but I've noticed there's been a lot of controversy surrounding this. As far as I know rugby players that are against racism is kneeling down before the game as a sign of protest. I saw a video of us president donald trump calling the protestors sob's, what's up with that? Why is there a lot of controversy surrounding this, why are people angry?

A lot of people are patriotic in the US.

Don't you think that's why he did it? Aren't protests designed to provoke a reaction?

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(September 27, 2017 at 9:18 am)TheBeardedDude Wrote: It isn't disrespectful. In fact, the initial protest that started it all last year by Colin Kapernick was intended to be a protest of police treatment of minorities where they took a knee instead of sitting explicitly because they thought taking a knee would be a respectful way of protesting (respectful to military personnel and what the flag stands for).

Initially he sat during the anthem. Apart from the anthem, he was seen wearing socks depicting police officers as pigs. He later cleaned it up a bit by kneeling, but don't act like he's full of respect for police or the US. He isn't.

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Anyone really interested in the issue should check out the WaPo database on police killings:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/...ings-2017/

So far this year blacks are 23% of the deaths, as compared to 13% of the general population. So, yes, there is a point there. But, note that in gross numbers almost twice as many whites have been killed. And Latinos were killed a few points under their representation in the population. Why do cops supposedly dislike one minority but favor another?

In my state, 4 blacks have been killed. Three were armed with guns, one with a knife.

New York has 10 deaths total (not just black). California has twice the population as NY, but has 126 deaths. We might be able to save 100 lives by sending NY cops to train CA cops. Both are very blue states with high populations. What's the difference?

Point being that it's not as simple as cops hate blacks.

(September 28, 2017 at 1:50 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(September 27, 2017 at 8:59 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: You know, I understand that the term "virtue signalling" is out of favour because there's people who use it as an excuse to dismiss ANY sort of morality that doesn't involve being a racist creature from the Id, but is there really a better term for the sort of conspicuous, but empty, display of morality that does nothing but make the participants look better, like, among the many examples to list, insisting on players in a football game standing for the national anthem kneeling during the national anthem?

Works both ways.

---

(September 27, 2017 at 8:30 am)pool the matey Wrote: I don't live in united states but I've noticed there's been a lot of controversy surrounding this. As far as I know rugby players that are against racism is kneeling down before the game as a sign of protest. I saw a video of us president donald trump calling the protestors sob's, what's up with that? Why is there a lot of controversy surrounding this, why are people angry?

A lot of people are patriotic in the US.

Don't you think that's why he did it? Aren't protests designed to provoke a reaction?

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(September 27, 2017 at 9:18 am)TheBeardedDude Wrote: It isn't disrespectful. In fact, the initial protest that started it all last year by Colin Kapernick was intended to be a protest of police treatment of minorities where they took a knee instead of sitting explicitly because they thought taking a knee would be a respectful way of protesting (respectful to military personnel and what the flag stands for).

Initially he sat during the anthem. Apart from the anthem, he was seen wearing socks depicting police officers as pigs. He later cleaned it up a bit by kneeling, but don't act like he's full of respect for police or the US. He isn't.

---

Anyone really interested in the issue should check out the WaPo database on police killings:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/...ings-2017/

So far this year blacks are 23% of the deaths, as compared to 13% of the general population. So, yes, there is a point there. But, note that in gross numbers almost twice as many whites have been killed. And Latinos were killed a few points under their representation in the population. Why do cops supposedly dislike one minority but favor another?

In my state, 4 blacks have been killed. Three were armed with guns, one with a knife.

New York has 10 deaths total (not just black). California has twice the population as NY, but has 126 deaths. We might be able to save 100 lives by sending NY cops to train CA cops. Both are very blue states with high populations. What's the difference?

Point being that it's not as simple as cops hate blacks.

You should get your facts straight. Initially he kneeled. The pig socks came before the protest. He has 2 uncles who are cops, so he clearly isn’t protesting police wholesale. Don’t spout off those conservative bullshit propaganda lines and expect people to swallow it

Check out this timeline. He sat for a few games before changing to kneeling.

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/11/12869...rshall-nfl