Quote:When you see a masterpiece, you know there is an Artist behind it. The whole thing comes together and there is no doubt about a designer.

The universe is not a man made object like a painting so false analogy . what applies to human made objects has not been demonstrated in the universe. Art requires an artist . There is zero proof the cosmos needs anything . 

[quote

Aside from the absurd evolution theory that has been dis-proven in many ways, is the over all masterpiece we are in.
[/quote]
You have not even come close to showing evolution as absurd only that your ignorant of it. And we are not in a masterpiece were in a cosmos .

(November 28, 2017 at 2:40 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You know how clear the witness argument is. It's been explained and proven thoroughly. We have an exact value, and exact measurement, not determined by us, but a  perfect judge.   Humans all know this though they may have became heedless of their constant witnessing of this like we become heedless of breathing.

You know what a complete ninny you are being, blathering out one assertion after the next without support, apparently convinced of the authority of your own words. 




Keep it up.

(November 28, 2017 at 2:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: That is the best argument for God because we breathe in it and out . Other proofs are indirect, but the witness argument, that is part of human living, no humans does without it not even for a second.

Fantastic, you just proved Ceiling Cat.

/thread

(November 28, 2017 at 2:42 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:When you see a masterpiece, you know there is an Artist behind it. The whole thing comes together and there is no doubt about a designer.

The universe is not a man made object like a painting so false analogy . what applies to human made objects has been demonstrated in the universe. Art requires an artist . There is zero proof the cosmos needs anything . 

WHAT! Are you suggesting that humanity is not the center of the universe?!

WTF. I bet you also think that the fact that many humans feel like they are the center of the universe is because they are egocentric bastards as well!

Oh right, I see your point. Carry on.

(November 28, 2017 at 2:42 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:Aside from the absurd evolution theory that has been dis-proven in many ways, is the over all masterpiece we are in.

You have not even come close to showing evolution as absurd only that your ignorant of it. And we are not in a masterpiece were in a cosmos .

Exactly. Knight, I truly hope you never have to depend on any kind of medical aid that wouldn't even exist if not for evolution.

(November 28, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 2:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: When you see a masterpiece, you know there is an Artist behind it. The whole thing comes together and there is no doubt about a designer.

Aside from the absurd evolution theory that has been dis-proven in many ways, is the over all masterpiece we are in.

Aside from the design, is "who" we are, which is defined by a perfect absolute judge who gives us exact measurement and makes inherit our deeds justly and values us accordingly to our specific situation and judges with perfect light, mainly, the light of himself who is the perfect perception and the perfectly witnessed by himself and no one truly witnesses God in full except himself, while we all witness him witnessing us and emanating his light to us whether we like it or not, whether we acknowledge or not.

I find the greatest mastery in nature itself working with wind and the elements and the play of life over the planet.  No gods required.  But go on deflecting the praise deserved by the natural world on to the creation of your imagination.

You can assert time and time again that no God is required, but that won't make the proofs go away, just be a shortcoming on your part, I live in a place where secular theories were taught to me about everything, I bought evolution and all the geology non-sense of how things cam to be for a time.   Half-knowledge and half baked theories can make anything seem true or reasonable. 

Cults arise from half baked knowledge. But when you begin to seek certainty and you know things for certain, and work with what you know for certain, you will see the propaganda is just that, propaganda.

The problem is not the evidence, it's the way it's analyzed.   Even fallacies which I hinted before about, they are trying do away with foundational ways human speak and often proper reasoning.

It happens to be you can't just cut and dry say "this and that" is always a fallacy for a lot of the supposed fallacies- it's situational, reasoning,   just like courage is situational and can go to extremism of foolishness and idiocy or carelessness or haughtiness or combination of that.

And to be good is part of reason and reason is part of goodness, and so there is unity in a lot things we think are not together.

(November 28, 2017 at 2:46 pm)Hammy Wrote: Oh right, I see your point. Carry on.

Speaking of "I see your point" . . . a lot of theistic arguments made for God are as circular as this, but less funny:

Quote:Eddie:
I see your point.

Richie:
Why? Have my trousers fallen down? No, they're up! I can see they're up! Oh, I see your point!

Eddie:
Why? Have my trousers fallen down? No, they're up! I can see they're up! Oh, I see your point!

Richie:
Why? Have my trousers fallen down? No, they're up! I can see they're up! Oh, I see your point!

Eddie:
Why? Have my trousers fallen down?

Eddie:
Help! Rich! We're stuck in a sort of knob gag Bermuda Triangle!

Richie:
Quick! Change routine! Change routine!

(November 28, 2017 at 2:47 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I find the greatest mastery in nature itself working with wind and the elements and the play of life over the planet.  No gods required.  But go on deflecting the praise deserved by the natural world on to the creation of your imagination.

You can assert time and time again that no God is required, but that won't make the proofs go away, just be a shortcoming on your part, I live in a place where secular theories were taught to me about everything, I bought evolution and all the geology non-sense of how things cam to be for a time.   Half-knowledge and half baked theories can make anything seem true or reasonable. 

Cults arise from half baked knowledge. But when you begin to seek certainty and you know things for certain, and work with what you know for certain, you will see the propaganda is just that, propaganda.

The problem is not the evidence, it's the way it's analyzed.   Even fallacies which I hinted before about, they are trying do away with foundational ways human speak and often proper reasoning.

It happens to be you can't just cut and dry say "this and that" is always a fallacy for a lot of the supposed fallacies- it's situational, reasoning,   just like courage is situational and can go to extremism of foolishness and idiocy or carelessness or haughtiness or combination of that.

And to be good is part of reason and reason is part of goodness, and so there is unity in a lot things we think are not together.

Yeah, yeah .. insert more jerk off emojis here.

(November 28, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 12:40 pm)LostLocke Wrote: Or, let's go further.
What if it turned out to be something like.... A causes B, B causes C, C causes D, D causes A?

Well backwards causality would only make sense like that if time ran backwards, and the notion of time running backwards doesn't seem to make any sense either. And it's worse than that because you seem to  be expecting causality and time to run BOTH ways. D cannot cause A if D's existence depends on being caused by A.

Not necessarily.

To use space instead of time as an example....
I'm in Chicago. I get in my car, point it west, and start driving. If I drive "straight" from my frame of reference, (ignoring obstacles of course), I will eventually return to Chicago. I don't have to drive backwards in space to return, I'll still be moving forward.
That's because we are driving along a 2 dimensional surface, but don't actually perceive this surface curving around a higher spatial dimension that warps it back in to itself. The same could apply to time.
And again, there is nothing in our current understanding of physics that prevents time from doing the same.

Quote:You know how clear the witness argument is. It's been explained and proven thoroughly. We have an exact value, and exact measurement, not determined by us, but a perfect judge. Humans all know this though they may have became heedless of their constant witnessing of this like we become heedless of breathing.

Nope measurements are just human inventions that have  culturally evolved as a patch for our imperfect brains . And are only exact because things have exact natures . 

Quote:That is the best argument for God because we breathe in it and out . Other proofs are indirect, but the witness argument, that is part of human living, no humans does without it not even for a second.

Nope being able to breathe through semi efficient lungs in an atmosphere that is slowly corroding them is not proof of a magic man who lives in the sky

---

(November 28, 2017 at 2:47 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I find the greatest mastery in nature itself working with wind and the elements and the play of life over the planet.  No gods required.  But go on deflecting the praise deserved by the natural world on to the creation of your imagination.

You can assert time and time again that no God is required, but that won't make the proofs go away, just be a shortcoming on your part, I live in a place where secular theories were taught to me about everything, I bought evolution and all the geology non-sense of how things cam to be for a time.   Half-knowledge and half baked theories can make anything seem true or reasonable. 

Cults arise from half baked knowledge. But when you begin to seek certainty and you know things for certain, and work with what you know for certain, you will see the propaganda is just that, propaganda.

The problem is not the evidence, it's the way it's analyzed.   Even fallacies which I hinted before about, they are trying do away with foundational ways human speak and often proper reasoning.

It happens to be you can't just cut and dry say "this and that" is always a fallacy for a lot of the supposed fallacies- it's situational, reasoning,   just like courage is situational and can go to extremism of foolishness and idiocy or carelessness or haughtiness or combination of that.

And to be good is part of reason and reason is part of goodness, and so there is unity in a lot things we think are not together.

No M it's your sad sack religion that is the only cult on display here