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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 3:34 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2018 at 3:36 pm by John V.)
(February 8, 2018 at 3:03 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Okay. I accept that as plausible; the notion of wanting to give love to something else the way we want to have children to love. But, I can’t think of a single thing my children could do to me or anyone else, that would drive me to cause them eternal pain and suffering as punishment; to cast them away forever. That would be terrible parenting. This is where it falls apart for me.
Wish I had a dollar for every time I've addressed this here. Only the saved are children of god.
Quote:There was time before time?
Yes. And, there will be time after time.
Quote:Not exactly sure what that has to do with Huggy’s faulty analogy.
It's an aside. You're straining to try to build a case that God was somehow lacking, when you could simply argue that from the verse I noted.
(February 8, 2018 at 3:30 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: This is my line of reasoning:
If god created people out of some yearning for fulfillment; some feeling of lacking something that would be rewarding, or add meaning to his existence, then he is not a fully whole and perfect being.
OK. Seeing as the Bible itself says that Jesus was made perfect through suffering, that's not problematic.
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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 3:47 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2018 at 3:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Bravo. While I'm sure that there's some christian somewhere certain that you're hellbound for even contemplating it..you can at least entertain the notion that god is not perfect. That, in and of itself...is a handy tool for explaining some of his greatest hits.
He's learning on the job.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 3:56 pm
A better question is why did man create gods?
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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 4:08 pm
We're learning on the job.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 4:37 pm
(February 8, 2018 at 3:30 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: This is my line of reasoning:
If god created people out of some yearning for fulfillment; some feeling of lacking something that would be rewarding, or add meaning to his existence, then he is not a fully whole and perfect being.
Here's an interesting verse:
Rev 13
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
From one perspective - that god exists outside the universe and can see all time at once - the above is true.
But, from Jesus' earthly ministry was fully in the universe. From that perspective, the prior verse on being perfected was true. As Christ's destiny was to be savior through suffering, he wasn't complete until he went through the suffering.
Fun stuff. 
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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 4:44 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2018 at 4:47 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(February 8, 2018 at 12:25 pm)SteveII Wrote: (February 8, 2018 at 10:00 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Let me ask you: how does an omniscient, omnipresent entity, who (according to Steve’s accountings) experiences all points in time simultaneously, experience desire? Desire implies a linearity; a time-line with points that represent first, a time when god desired something he did not presently have, and then a time after he had fulfilled that desire?
That is definitely not my belief. God does not experience all points in time simultaneously. Quite the contrary. Before the universe: timeless, since the moment of creation: temporal. Given that, there is no logical contradiction in God having a relationship with someone or experiencing desires.
SteveII, I have a problem with any suggestion that God is subject to change. Being fully actualized God's state is in complete satisfaction of His will. For God there can be no before state of unfulfilled desire.
That highlights an apparent problem to which I think Lady Camus points. Does the act of creation in some way complete God, implying a lack of self-sufficiency?
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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 4:47 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2018 at 4:48 pm by John V.)
(February 8, 2018 at 4:44 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: SteveII, I have a problem with any suggestion that God is subject to change. Being fully actualized God's state is in complete satisfaction of His will. For God there can be no before state of unfulfilled desire.
Can you dumb that down so I can understand it?
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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 4:52 pm
(February 8, 2018 at 2:37 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (February 8, 2018 at 12:20 pm)SteveII Wrote: Good questions.
Why do we desire friendship, spouses? How about the desire to have children? I think it is because relationships add a specific kind of value to the lives of both people. There is joy when the other person succeeds, there is a desire to help when the other is in needs, there is greater satisfaction in shared experiences, there is comfort when there is tragedy, and there is a feeling of peacefulness when everything is good between two people.
I think God created us for those and similar reasons: An eternal relationship has value both to us and to God.
So, god was lacking something, or was unfulfilled in some way before creating humanity? He was...lonely?
There are two senses of the word "lacking". One is a deficiency and the other is simply without. I don't think God was deficient in any way in what makes him a perfect God. In fact, God desiring relationships seems to be a perfection. Think about it, what is better--a God who does not desire relationships or a God who desires them because the experience has value? I think an argument for the latter would be more persuasive.
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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 4:52 pm
(February 7, 2018 at 10:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I have a question for our Christians: Why did God create people? Further, why did he create anything at all?
Since your question seems to be based on the biblical fairy tale it's because Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies, likes the Jews more than anything else and the Gentiles are destined to be their eternal slaves = Isaiah 14:1-2. Now quick, believe in the magic zombie.
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RE: Why, God? Why?!
February 8, 2018 at 4:58 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2018 at 5:49 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(February 8, 2018 at 3:56 pm)Minimalist Wrote: A better question is why did man create gods? Because men who were better for humanity if never born or died in infancy were regrettably allowed to live.
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