Hello everyone,

I previously asked why Jesus seems to show up in Near Death Experiences while Muslims have never documented a case of seeing the prophet. Doing a lot of research, I found that they do expect to see Muhammad when they die during judgement day, and potentially afterwards if they make it to heaven. However, I know they also don't worship Muhammad, the way Christians worship Jesus. I thought that this might explain why Muhammad doesn't show up in NDEs while Jesus does: anytime a Christian sees a light or has a feeling of warmth, they claim they felt the presence of Jesus. While, in a Muslim NDE, they would not likely interpret light or feelings of familiarity and positivity with Muhammad. Also, Muslims do not have any images of Muhammad, so there would be less to potentially hallucinate there. I was pretty satisfied with this answer as to why Christians see Jesus, whereas Muslims rarely (if ever) encounter Muhammad. However, then I did some more reading, and found that Jesus appears physically different to different people. I found that to many, he has dark hair, big eyes, a beard, etc. Many pictures of him do not depict dark hair, and some people see him as tanned as well. NDErs use the excuse that: "Jesus shows up differently to all of us, in a way we understand or imagine him, so that our spiritual journey will make the most sense to us". One woman even described him as looking nothing like Jesus from pictures. Yet, some people say this Jesus they see does look like Jesus in traditional paintings. I can't quite explain that one: that it seems the appearance of Jesus doesn't matter, but Christians still see him, while Muslims don't see Muhammad. I know some Muslim NDE researchers originally thought they would find Muslim NDEs with Muhammad in them, but there is yet to be one recorded one. Would the fact that Jesus shows up in different images give Christianity a better chance of being true over Islam, or is there a chance there is another explanation that we haven't found yet?

Quote:However, I know they also don't worship Muhammad, the way Christians worship Jesus.

Agreed.  I'd say that makes muslims slightly smarter than christards.

The contents of a hallucinatory experience is NOT a good basis to make claims about the universe. (ie, THIS god exists because THESE people have a hallucinatory experience of him when near death.)

If you look into such matters, you can learn which religions are prone to experience certain phenomena when near death, but you can't learn anything about which God is real. What are you trying to learn from studying such things?

(February 20, 2018 at 7:01 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: The contents of a hallucinatory experience is NOT a good basis to make claims about the universe. (ie, THIS god exists because THESE people have a hallucinatory experience of him when near death.)

If you look into such matters, you can learn which religions are prone to experience certain phenomena when near death, but you can't learn anything about which God is real. What are you trying to learn from studying such things?

I want to know if I should still believe, I find there is absolutely no evidence for any of it, other than these NDEs. So many people report they feel realer than real life. I have looked at arguments against NDEs, and none of them quite seem to add up why they occur so vividly, clearly, etc. Be that as it may, I always wondered why Christians report seeing Jesus, while Muslims don't report their imagery which is uniquely Muslim. If I could get a sure-fire answer to that, not just "oh NDEs are BS, therefore you shouldn't trust them, all religions are false". At the moment, I feel this may prove Christianity to be correct. However, if I ever find out NDEs are a product of the brain and not the soul, I would probably no longer believe.

orthodox-man Wrote: However, if I ever find out NDEs are a product of the brain and not the soul, I would probably no longer believe.

If you search, there are plenty of scientific articles proclaiming that it is related to the brain rather than the nonexistent soul.

(February 20, 2018 at 7:07 pm)orthodox-man Wrote: So many people report they feel realer than real life.

Haven't you had a lover before? Things feel SO REAL when you are into them. But later on down the line... not so much. For reasons like this, I say strong feelings are no substitute for logic.

I'm sorry if you don't like my answer. It's the most honest thing I can say about it. FWIW, I don't want you to deny religion because I said so. It's best that you weigh the evidence yourself and come to your own conclusion on the matter. That being said, there is no reason why you can't take my statements about logic being better than strong feelings into account while you continue to examine the possible significance of NDEs.

Keep your mind open to all possibilities, theism, atheism, whatever... then decide on which is most reasonable. That's my meta-advice.

(February 20, 2018 at 7:11 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

orthodox-man Wrote: However, if I ever find out NDEs are a product of the brain and not the soul, I would probably no longer believe.

If you search, there are plenty of scientific articles proclaiming that it is related to the brain rather than the nonexistent soul.

I know, but let me ask you this, I counted on many sites. I found about 160 accounts of Christians meeting Jesus, and this is what I found for Muslims:
one NDE where a woman sees the throne of God and it says "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger" and one where a woman saw Jesus, Mary, Krishna, Buddha and Muhammad all. I haven't found any personal ones with Muhammad, and I asked NDE researchers. They told me that Jesus shows up in 13% of NDE accounts collected worldwide, and they are yet to come across one with Muhammad. Muslim researchers have a hard time explaining this. I could see Muslims having slightly less expectation to see Muhammad at the second of death, but the thing is, I wonder, if NDEs are fake, why does this tend to be the case? Do 160 compared to 0 give Christianity a clear edge over Islam in general?

---

(February 20, 2018 at 7:15 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(February 20, 2018 at 7:07 pm)orthodox-man Wrote: So many people report they feel realer than real life.

Haven't you had a lover before? Things feel SO REAL when you are into them. But later on down the line... not so much. For reasons like this, I say strong feelings are no substitute for logic.

I'm sorry if you don't like my answer. It's the most honest thing I can say about it. FWIW, I don't want you to deny religion because I said so. It's best that you weigh the evidence yourself and come to your own conclusion on the matter. That being said, there is no reason why you can't take my statements about logic being better than strong feelings into account while you continue to examine the possible significance of NDEs.

Keep your mind open to all possibilities, theism, atheism, whatever... then decide on which is most reasonable. That's my meta-advice.

That's good advice, thanks. I just really wonder if the one aspect I am looking into gives one faith an edge over the other.

(February 20, 2018 at 7:19 pm)orthodox-man Wrote: I know, but let me ask you this, I counted on many sites. I found about 160 accounts of Christians meeting Jesus, and this is what I found for Muslims:
one NDE where a woman sees the throne of God and it says "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger" and one where a woman saw Jesus, Mary, Krishna, Buddha and Muhammad all. I haven't found any personal ones with Muhammad, and I asked NDE researchers. They told me that Jesus shows up in 13% of NDE accounts collected worldwide, and they are yet to come across one with Muhammad. Muslim researchers have a hard time explaining this. I could see Muslims having slightly less expectation to see Muhammad at the second of death, but the thing is, I wonder, if NDEs are fake, why does this tend to be the case? Do 160 compared to 0 give Christianity a clear edge over Islam in general?

Considering that NDE accounts are mere heresay and ONLY personal evidence for the individual, I would not be worrying over the inconsistency of unrealistic mythology concocted from oxygen deprivation to the brain.

(February 20, 2018 at 7:35 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(February 20, 2018 at 7:19 pm)orthodox-man Wrote: I know, but let me ask you this, I counted on many sites. I found about 160 accounts of Christians meeting Jesus, and this is what I found for Muslims:
one NDE where a woman sees the throne of God and it says "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger" and one where a woman saw Jesus, Mary, Krishna, Buddha and Muhammad all. I haven't found any personal ones with Muhammad, and I asked NDE researchers. They told me that Jesus shows up in 13% of NDE accounts collected worldwide, and they are yet to come across one with Muhammad. Muslim researchers have a hard time explaining this. I could see Muslims having slightly less expectation to see Muhammad at the second of death, but the thing is, I wonder, if NDEs are fake, why does this tend to be the case? Do 160 compared to 0 give Christianity a clear edge over Islam in general?

Considering that NDE accounts are mere heresay and ONLY personal evidence for the individual, I would not be worrying over the inconsistency of unrealistic mythology concocted from oxygen deprivation to the brain.

what if you found out that oxygen wasn't the cause of NDEs, and neither was any of the other current explanations? Would you then believe in NDEs?

(February 20, 2018 at 7:39 pm)orthodox-man Wrote: what if you found out that oxygen wasn't the cause of NDEs, and neither was any of the other current explanations? Would you then believe in NDEs?

Granted, proper empirical evidence of something would be sufficient to change one's mind.