(May 6, 2018 at 5:19 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

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(May 6, 2018 at 1:59 pm)Minimalist Wrote:  

Isn't it convenient that all religitards everywhere manage to get born into a culture which just so happens to follow the One True Religion?  Almost miraculous.

I find God's books are everywhere in every culture, but the interpretation by those who claim to be authorities are very bad, and this includes the Torah.

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I knew the sky was blue before I knew anything about the details of how it's blue nor why.

I knew God is real before I knew how I knew and what was his proof.

I knew morality to be real before I realized what it is.

Most people ought to believe in God simply because they see him.

How they see him and what's the reality they see, and being honest to that, is a debate in religions.

The proof is the image of God, his holy spirit, which after Jesus was Elijah, and the promised one to be sent was Mohammad who was the one who God would send per prayer of Moses, and he was succeeded by 12 Successors as predicted a true king followed up by twelve princes, and aforetime, there was twelve Navigating Captains in the covenant of Moses to the children of Israel.

And the Torah iterates the light emitted by Moses and Aaron, and the designation of Aaron's family. And it contradicts it but then verifies as well.

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Quote:Mohammad is in the Torah and Gospels in a way that is subtle to not stir debate yet manifest and clear to those who seek to see through insight and not blindly following idols just as the family of the reminder is clear in the Quran for who seek the truth.

Can you back that up with chapter and verse?

(May 7, 2018 at 7:43 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 6:12 pm)Quick Wrote: Well, that's not my stance and that is not what I am saying. If you read my other comments in this thread, I give context to what I mean when I talk about being in a dance. My opinion is informed based on what I know, ofc. Part of what I know is different viewpoints on the belief in God or gods. But I am not really following other pantheists/agnostics to see what they believe so that it can inform me on what I believe, which, when/if I did, then I would be playing the same dance that everyone else is.

I think it;s cute that you think that, while simultaneously imagining that there's some atheist factory out there in the world..... and that you, yes you...are a credible authority on atheism.

So long as you presist in this utterly common bullshit about atheism being a belief...you will have missed what atheism actually is by as far as it could be missed. You'll likely be treated as if yoiu were any of the other nutters before you who;ve been through here and made the same claims, providing the same rationalizations.

I am just noting an observation when I talk about the dance.

IIRC, the reason for atheism is that they believe there is no God because there is no/ineffective evidence to support that there is a God, which leads people to believe there is no God or something very similar. Which, sure, but there is no evidence that life should exist either and yet here we are.

(May 6, 2018 at 1:52 pm)Quick Wrote: I find this forum to be much of a dance (Re: christians being here [haven't run into any muslims yet])... I find whatever one's beliefs, one must learn the steps, and in that there is an inherent flaw: people are not thinking for themselves.

My opinion is this: You have been taught the steps, what more is your belief than that? I don't believe many people thought up the idea there is no God on their own since historically speaking, humans have believed a God exists. So I don't think they came to the conclusion themselves, but that this is something that is taught (or worse, they are simply believing in an antithesis). The point here is that people are not thinking for themselves. I will say I am not a hypocrite in this manner considering I came to the only reasonable conclusion I could make, which is that in the debate of whether God is real or not, I find the only reasonable explanation is that I don't know, which leads me to thinking that because there is a debate about God in the first place that someone somewhere must be on to something a long time ago, which leads me to believing everything is miraculous and everything is God.

OK, suppose there is a God creature.  What do you think he will do for you specifically?

(May 7, 2018 at 8:00 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 1:52 pm)Quick Wrote: I find this forum to be much of a dance (Re: christians being here [haven't run into any muslims yet])... I find whatever one's beliefs, one must learn the steps, and in that there is an inherent flaw: people are not thinking for themselves.

My opinion is this: You have been taught the steps, what more is your belief than that? I don't believe many people thought up the idea there is no God on their own since historically speaking, humans have believed a God exists. So I don't think they came to the conclusion themselves, but that this is something that is taught (or worse, they are simply believing in an antithesis). The point here is that people are not thinking for themselves. I will say I am not a hypocrite in this manner considering I came to the only reasonable conclusion I could make, which is that in the debate of whether God is real or not, I find the only reasonable explanation is that I don't know, which leads me to thinking that because there is a debate about God in the first place that someone somewhere must be on to something a long time ago, which leads me to believing everything is miraculous and everything is God.

OK, suppose there is a God creature.  What do you think he will do for you specifically?

I am not saying there is a God creature. God may just be that which explains the unexplainable. God may be the force that drives the universe to work the way it does.

Just going to bump this up to see if you care to give me a response. I've read what you wrote and given you mine. Have thought about it? Any response?

(May 7, 2018 at 3:17 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 1:52 pm)Quick Wrote: I find this forum to be much of a dance (Re: christians being here [haven't run into any muslims yet])... I find whatever one's beliefs, one must learn the steps, and in that there is an inherent flaw: people are not thinking for themselves.

My opinion is this: You have been taught the steps, what more is your belief than that? I don't believe many people thought up the idea there is no God on their own since historically speaking, humans have believed a God exists. So I don't think they came to the conclusion themselves, but that this is something that is taught (or worse, they are simply believing in an antithesis). The point here is that people are not thinking for themselves. I will say I am not a hypocrite in this manner considering I came to the only reasonable conclusion I could make, which is that in the debate of whether God is real or not, I find the only reasonable explanation is that I don't know, which leads me to thinking that because there is a debate about God in the first place that someone somewhere must be on to something a long time ago, which leads me to believing everything is miraculous and everything is God.

Then you're not an agnostic though you may be a pantheist.

I have no belief in gods so I am an atheist.  I don't argue that gods don't exist so I am also agnostic.  I do however think that gods which people have so long believed in do not justify a belief in anything supernatural.  God belief is natural.  But that doesn't mean people have been correct to posit some ultra dimension in which they may exist.  God belief exists in people's experience and that is where you need to look to find of what a god actually consists.

(May 7, 2018 at 7:52 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 5:19 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

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I find God's books are everywhere in every culture, but the interpretation by those who claim to be authorities are very bad, and this includes the Torah.

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I knew the sky was blue before I knew anything about the details of how it's blue nor why.

I knew God is real before I knew how I knew and what was his proof.

I knew morality to be real before I realized what it is.

Most people ought to believe in God simply because they see him.

How they see him and what's the reality they see, and being honest to that, is a debate in religions.

The proof is the image of God, his holy spirit, which after Jesus was Elijah, and the promised one to be sent was Mohammad who was the one who God would send per prayer of Moses, and he was succeeded by 12 Successors as predicted a true king followed up by twelve princes, and aforetime, there was twelve Navigating Captains in the covenant of Moses to the children of Israel.

And the Torah iterates the light emitted by Moses and Aaron, and the designation of Aaron's family. And it contradicts it but then verifies as well.

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Can you back that up with chapter and verse?

Yes, I can.

(May 7, 2018 at 6:12 pm)Quick Wrote: I can't be sure my subjective mappings of reality are any more accurate than anyone else's.

Bold mine.

But others do have a method to see of our beliefs accurately map to reality. And that is by basing them on demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, reasoned argument and valid and sound logic.

You really don't believe that there is a reliable method to determine fact from fiction? Or what is likely true, from what is unlikely true? Then why do we lock up insane people? I am sure there are many schizophrenics you can get many different subjective interpretations of reality from, that are demonstrable not true. And of course, you don't believe them.

The fact that you are unable to see the difference in the reliability of beliefs based on subjective interpretations, and based on demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument, says a lot about your credulity.

When I accept a claim to be true, I do so based on the above criteria (demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, reasoned argument and valid and sound logic). If the claim is not supported by those criteria, then I withhold belief.

The interesting thing is, I can guarantee that, when it comes to other aspects of your life, you don't base your beliefs on subjective interpretations. I'll bet when you cross the street, you make your decision based on evidence, not subjective interpretation. "It sure looks there is a car coming, but my subjective interpretation makes me believe the street is clear", said you never.

Why are your god beliefs immune to the same level of scrutiny as other aspects of your life? Why base them on subjective interpretations, yet use evidence and reason when choosing a surgeon, for example?

(May 7, 2018 at 3:17 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 1:52 pm)Quick Wrote: I find this forum to be much of a dance (Re: christians being here [haven't run into any muslims yet])... I find whatever one's beliefs, one must learn the steps, and in that there is an inherent flaw: people are not thinking for themselves.

My opinion is this: You have been taught the steps, what more is your belief than that? I don't believe many people thought up the idea there is no God on their own since historically speaking, humans have believed a God exists. So I don't think they came to the conclusion themselves, but that this is something that is taught (or worse, they are simply believing in an antithesis). The point here is that people are not thinking for themselves. I will say I am not a hypocrite in this manner considering I came to the only reasonable conclusion I could make, which is that in the debate of whether God is real or not, I find the only reasonable explanation is that I don't know, which leads me to thinking that because there is a debate about God in the first place that someone somewhere must be on to something a long time ago, which leads me to believing everything is miraculous and everything is God.

Then you're not an agnostic though you may be a pantheist.

I have no belief in gods so I am an atheist.  I don't argue that gods don't exist so I am also agnostic.  I do however think that gods which people have so long believed in do not justify a belief in anything supernatural.  God belief is natural.  But that doesn't mean people have been correct to posit some ultra dimension in which they may exist.  God belief exists in people's experience and that is where you need to look to find of what a god actually consists.

Yes, I more or less straddle the line between agnostic and pantheist because I believe that there may or may not be a God that explains out existence and that if there is a God that this God likely is/was more just the push that put the universe into existence. That said, I do believe there are active effects of this supposed God's existence that are represented as phenomenon that cannot be explained.

You didn't ask me a question, so I was not quite sure how to respond.

Quick Wrote:

surreptitious57 Wrote:Everything is directly or indirectly connected to everything else so therefore the notion of any type of separation is a false one
For even if there are other universes and we inhabit a multiverse what exists between them is a part of the fabric of reality too

The fact that everything is connected is a reason why I hold the beliefs I do. When I talk about separation context is important. It should be obvious what I mean but instead you try and
apply a grand principle to the dichotomy I used to make a point. You didnt address that point I made you stated that on a grand scale my premise is wrong. When looking at things there
are orders of magnitude. You used a level of magnitude that doesnt fit the situation

What I said there is actually my own philosophy which is why I mentioned it so I was not intentionally trying to prove you wrong

I see all of existence as perpetual motion. I see life and death as different points on the spectrum of existence. I see no objective meaning to any of it other than it existing simply
because it can. Our own existence in the grand scheme of things also means absolutely nothing. This sounds exactly like nihilism but I am not a nihilist. I see existence more from
a neutral perspective than a negative one. I try to be as emotionally detached from all this as much as possible because I prefer to think logically or either simply just let things be

I have no interest in convincing anyone of any of this or indeed anything else because how they think is outside my jurisdiction. I only have jurisdiction over my
own mind and so that is the only one I work with. I can tell others what I think and why. But what they do with that information is also outside my jurisdiction

Being detached brings peace of mind. Ultimate peace of mind comes with death. And that is why it should not be feared. I have absolutely no fear of it at all

(May 7, 2018 at 7:37 pm)Quick Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 7:16 pm)The Industrial Atheist Wrote: Christianity has invented myths rather than credible facts. They even say it's based on faith, and that any evidence they have comes from faith.

I'd say the belief that there is no God is a faith as well. The only way for your belief to not be a faith is to say you don't know since there isn't proof one way or another.

Well for instance, there have been studies done that show that prayer doesn't work. But really the god idea is purposely designed to be non falsifiable in every way possible. You can't see or hear him (although some claim to have, but don't have any photo or digital audio evidence) some claim to be able to feel him, but in my experience they are often conflating feelings of excitement or contentment or love and calling that feeling god.

Beyond that, what is there? Even if there is no proof that there is no god, which I find to be somewhat dubious, I don't automatically believe in something  that isn't proven. This is the criteria most people have for almost everything else in life.

Also what about all the suffering? Religions use all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to justify it, but really if you were a being that could literally do anything, why would you allow all the miserable disease, starvation, and strife. 
There are other philosophical reasons to not believe in god, that's just off the top of my head. for me just that one is pretty close to proof.
Although I do allow for the faintest possibility that god exists.

I definitely don't believe god exists, but is it somehow possible? Yes but he/she/it would have to be unrecognizable.