(May 14, 2018 at 10:39 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:

(May 14, 2018 at 1:14 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Is it just an angry atheists thing?    Because I don't what you say here, following from what you said previously.

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What?   I think that you are imposing a lot of bias here, and your view of the other side is grossly inaccurate.   But then again, I don't see that the abortion issue has anything to do with oppressing women/mothers.   I think that it is about not supporting the killing of innocent babies with poor justification and reasons  to do so.

When innocent babies are killed, it's called murder and there are laws against that. An abortion doesn't kill a baby, no matter how much you want to throw emotionally charged imagery around.

When innocent fetal humans are killed, there are laws against that, and it’s called murder as well. Except in some circumstances of special pleading. You wanting to de-humanize the undesirable doesn’t change that.

Just for the record, Murder is a strictly defined term. To quote the OED, it's defined as: "The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." If it's legal, it's not murder, full stop. Abortion is legal (depending on the country, at least), therefore, it's not murder by definition. Whether or not the fetus counts as a person, if it's legal, it cannot, a priori, be murder.

(May 14, 2018 at 10:51 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: You wanting to de-humanize the undesirable doesn’t change that.

That you want to completely ignore the undesirable doesn't make your stance any less repugnant. Tell you what RR. Why don't you spend a couple years volunteering at a clinic that treats crack babies and fetal alcohol syndrome kids. Or, maybe work as a cop investigating domestic abuse, especially child abuse. The laws you pro-birthers want in place would drastically increase these "undesirable" things yet none of you ever seem to consider them in your crusades to save the unborn for lives with parents that didn't fucking want them in the first place.

Seriously, what percentage of these unwanted pregnancies do you think will result in well loved, well adjusted children?!?

(May 14, 2018 at 11:15 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:

(May 14, 2018 at 10:51 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: You wanting to de-humanize the undesirable doesn’t change that.

That you want to completely ignore the undesirable doesn't make your stance any less repugnant. Tell you what RR. Why don't you spend a couple years volunteering at a clinic that treats crack babies and fetal alcohol syndrome kids. Or, maybe work as a cop investigating domestic abuse, especially child abuse. The laws you pro-birthers want in place would drastically increase these "undesirable" things yet none of you ever seem to consider them in your crusades to save the unborn for lives with parents that didn't fucking want them in the first place.

Seriously, what percentage of these unwanted pregnancies do you think will result in well loved, well adjusted children?!?

Don’t think that I don’t have compassion in any of instances. However I don’t thing that it is justification to kill a human being. I don’t need a law, or to be a policeman or a social worker to know that murderimg another human being is wrong Yoor sad song and emotional appeal doesn’t change that.

(May 14, 2018 at 11:28 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(May 14, 2018 at 11:15 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: That you want to completely ignore the undesirable doesn't make your stance any less repugnant. Tell you what RR. Why don't you spend a couple years volunteering at a clinic that treats crack babies and fetal alcohol syndrome kids. Or, maybe work as a cop investigating domestic abuse, especially child abuse. The laws you pro-birthers want in place would drastically increase these "undesirable" things yet none of you ever seem to consider them in your crusades to save the unborn for lives with parents that didn't fucking want them in the first place.

Seriously, what percentage of these unwanted pregnancies do you think will result in well loved, well adjusted children?!?

Don’t think that I don’t have compassion in any of instances. However I don’t thing that it is justification to kill a human being. I don’t need a law, or to be a policeman or a social worker to know that murderimg another human being is wrong  Yoor sad song and emotional appeal doesn’t change that.

So, ignore the consequences of the pro-birth agenda and full steam ahead. All right, then. Your compassion seems to be about as thin as my belief in gods.

And, as pointed out, abortion is not murder, no matter how much you wish it were.

(May 14, 2018 at 11:45 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:

(May 14, 2018 at 11:28 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Don’t think that I don’t have compassion in any of instances. However I don’t thing that it is justification to kill a human being. I don’t need a law, or to be a policeman or a social worker to know that murderimg another human being is wrong  Yoor sad song and emotional appeal doesn’t change that.

So, ignore the consequences of the pro-birth agenda and full steam ahead. All right, then. Your compassion seems to be about as thin as my belief in gods.

And, as pointed out, abortion is not murder, no matter how much you wish it were.

I’m not talking about ignoring anything. And if you think that a paticular argument justifies killing another, then feel free to make it. It seems like we are just bouncing around from one bad reason, and people ignore what I say and move on.

As to murder, I can understand that distinction in regards to a legal matters. However what I am meaning by it is unjustified killing. This is beyond what is lawful, to what is right. The rights of human beings. Someone recently brought up the Spanish Inquisition. I don’t think that legal technicalities, would work there to justify it, then it does here.

(May 14, 2018 at 11:53 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(May 14, 2018 at 11:45 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: So, ignore the consequences of the pro-birth agenda and full steam ahead. All right, then. Your compassion seems to be about as thin as my belief in gods.

And, as pointed out, abortion is not murder, no matter how much you wish it were.

I’m not talking about ignoring anything. And if you think that a paticular argument justifies killing another, then feel free to make it. It seems like we are just bouncing around from one bad reason, and people ignore what I say and move on.

As to murder, I can understand that distinction in regards to a legal matters. However what I am meaning by it is unjustified killing. This is beyond what is lawful, to what is right. The rights of human beings. Someone recently brought up the Spanish Inquisition. I don’t think that legal technicalities, would work there to justify it, then it does here.

I'd call the Spanish Inquisition an atrocity, but given the fact that it had the official approval of the king of Spain, it didn't count as murder. You just need to find other ways to criticise abortion that don't involve rendering the English language meaningless.

For instance, my preferred argument for keeping abortion legal is that making it illegal actually makes things a hell of a lot worse than they would have been if they were legally allowed to terminate their pregnancies; here's one doctor's experiences of what he had to deal with from women who didn't have the option of having someone who knew what they were doing perform it. Nowadays, it's actually somewhere in the ballpark of ten times less likely to kill the woman than actually giving birth. No, that shouldn't be even close to the only thing to consider when choosing whether to keep or abort it, but it does show how much safer it actually is now that it's legal. No need to use soda bottles to try and get it out now that we have doctors who can actually suck it out with a specially designed vacuum

Quote:   But then again, I don't see that the abortion issue has anything to do with oppressing women/mothers

Then your ignorant because that's the only issue that matters . Either the woman has the absolute right to her own body and it's resources for her exclusive use . Or her autonomy is merely subject to the whim of others . Because the exercise of her autonomy results in death is not at issue . The fetus is an intruder that she has every right to expel from her body .

The anti-choice movement is dumb, explained easily:

Either you think that there should be an exception for rape (because forcing a 13 year old girl who's been raped to carry a baby inside of her for 40 weeks is absolutely awful) in which case you're perfectly okay with letting a 'life' die because of the action of it's father.

OR

You think there should NOT be an exception for rape, and have no concern for the 13 year old rape victim.  Which means you don't really care about life so much as you do forcing birth, and are trying to be consistent.

The only clear position is to be pro-choice.  If you're a woman, you can choose NOT to ever have an abortion.  That's your right as a human being, and I wouldn't dream of taking that away from you.  If you're a man, be thankful you will never be pregnant barring some scientific experiment.  (I say we try it, just once.  I mean what could it hurt?  I vote using the anti-choice men as candidates for the program.)  But nobody should be telling another woman what to do with her body.  

Now if you want to REDUCE the number of abortions by providing comprehensive sex education and free birth control, providing expecting mothers with appropriate financial assistance, and providing children with plenty of food to make the choice of deciding to have a kid easier -- then by all means do it.  That's a fair goal that doesn't take the ultimate decision out of the woman's hands.

But let's not pretend that pregnancy does not effect women in many ways.  The decision should be hers and hers alone.  The government has no business getting involved in making that decision.

When you have to mid-represent the other side with such a bad false dichotomy, I think that is a major indication about your position.