(October 11, 2018 at 11:10 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 11:06 am)SteveII Wrote: Off the top of my head: Plutarch is not attesting to the events he writes about. In his defense it was 400 years earlier.

So...that's actually 401 reasons.

But if you check the work, he refers to first-hand testimonies surrounding Alexander the Great's birth.

Exactly how the authors of the Gospels referred to others' testimonies of Jesus' birth.

And the evidence of Alexander id way freaking stronger then evidence for Jesus

(October 11, 2018 at 11:05 am)polymath257 Wrote: So, yes, all people are conscious

You can observe only your own consciousness yet claiming without scientific proof that everyone else is conscious.

Quote:Yes, it is irrational to think that a p-zombie will respond *identically* in every way to all stimuli as something conscious and NOT be conscious.

Why is it irrational?

Quote: In what way are they *not* conscious? Why would they do all of these things *unless* they are, in fact, conscious?

They don't experience qualia

(October 11, 2018 at 11:12 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 11:10 am)Grandizer Wrote: But if you check the work, he refers to first-hand testimonies surrounding Alexander the Great's birth.

Exactly how the authors of the Gospels referred to others' testimonies of Jesus' birth.

And the evidence of Alexander id way freaking stronger then evidence for Jesus

We have hard evidence for Alex the Dick, unlike jebus the interminably vague.

ETA: When you think about it, dimitry's jebus is, by his definition, merely a construct of his mind and clearly applies to nobody else anyway. Thus we can all dismiss the Dimitry version of jebus since it is exclusive to his mind and nobody else's. None of us really exist at all, we are all p-zombies and entirely constructs of his mind. Thus, none of this is actually real. Not you, not me, not this forum not anything.

That begs the question...Why exactly did he sign up here anyway? Surely he could have signed up to an imaginary forum in his mind over which he had total mental control? But NO. He signed up here to attempt to "prove" his position. That alone demonstrates that he does not believe his own solipsist bollocks. Once again we arrive at the fact that solipsists act as though reality is real and simply engage in mental onanism.

It's a little sad.

Dmitry, you're taking a hell of a long time to get to the point. This endless flogging of the P-zombie thought experiment is nothing more than you (a theist of unknown vintage) providing a negative "case" for dualism. Forget that. What's your positive case for dualism?

(October 11, 2018 at 11:13 am)Dmitry1983 Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 11:05 am)polymath257 Wrote: So, yes, all people are conscious

You can observe only your own consciousness yet claiming without scientific proof that everyone else is conscious.

Quote:Yes, it is irrational to think that a p-zombie will respond *identically* in every way to all stimuli as something conscious and NOT be conscious.

Why is it irrational?

Quote: In what way are they *not* conscious? Why would they do all of these things *unless* they are, in fact, conscious?

They don't experience qualia

I disagree. if they are able to report experiencing qualia, discussing qualia in detail, etc, it is meaningless to say they don't experience qualia.

In essence, you are promoting a version of solipsism as being reasonable. Sorry, that doesn't work. The best, most predictive hypothesis about the real world is that other people are conscious: that they have internal states that are part of their decision making processes. And that is sufficient *from a scientific perspective* to say they are, in fact, conscious. Any definition that doesn't allow this is not a scientific one and is thereby immediately suspicious.

(October 11, 2018 at 11:16 am)polymath257 Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 11:13 am)Dmitry1983 Wrote: You can observe only your own consciousness yet claiming without scientific proof that everyone else is conscious.

Why is it irrational?

They don't experience qualia

I disagree. if they are able to report experiencing qualia, discussing qualia in detail, etc, it is meaningless to say they don't experience qualia.

By definition p-zombie can talk about qualia without experiencing it. You can even teach computer to do that.

Quote:And that is sufficient *from a scientific perspective* to say they are, in fact, conscious.

What does science have to do with your personal opinion?

Holy hell  Feser  Steve is scrapping the bottom of the barrel now

(October 11, 2018 at 10:01 am)Dmitry1983 Wrote: Why? Can you prove it scientifically?

Science is not another word for math or whiskey; it does not prove, it merely shows us what the evidence indicates Evidence that our brains produce all of our mental states: all the evidence we have.