Democrats don't really have a viable candidate as of yet, and after what they did to B. Sanders during the 2016 primaries, they're going to be hard pressed to find a front runner who is able to run without looking over their shoulder at the DNC while they run. Of all the potential candidates they've named so far, I think Oprah was their best hope of winning in 2020, but of course she said "no."

(December 5, 2018 at 5:44 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Democrats don't really have a viable candidate as of yet, and after what they did to B. Sanders during the 2016 primaries, they're going to be hard pressed to find a front runner who is able to run without looking over their shoulder at the DNC while they run. Of all the potential candidates they've named so far, I think Oprah was their best hope of winning in 2020, but of course she said "no."

We still have time. I fear if Sanders gets the nomination that a lot of Democrats who unfairly blame him for the lost election in 2016 will stay home out of spite on election day.

Quote:The George Bernard Shaw adage is apropos; don't wrestle with a pig, you'll both get covered in shit, but the pig will like it

If you wrestle with it right you get bacon 

(December 5, 2018 at 4:50 pm)Cato Wrote: The George Bernard Shaw adage is apropos; don't wrestle with a pig, you'll both get covered in shit, but the pig will like it.  That's all this delegitimizing effort has become and it hasn't worked.  Continuing this tactic in the hope that 'something' will finally rise to a level that Trump supporters will detest is folly.  If the Democrats don't coalesce around a policy platform more substantive than not-Trump, they're toast, because all that will be is putting somebody in the shit ring to wrestle.

If they don't, Democrats will have to rely on someone like Kasich, Flake or Paul going rogue and siphoning votes as an independent.

Well put. The other adage about Democrats and cats is also germane. While the media focus on Trump’s temperament, demeanor, and inability to grasp the rudiments of his job is valid (and - to be honest - pretty fucking entertaining), it isn’t going to be enough to make sizeable shifts in the electorate.

USian Democrats seem to have some valid ideas, but they desperately need to articulate them and, as you said, coalesce around them.

Boru

(December 5, 2018 at 5:26 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(December 5, 2018 at 4:50 pm)Cato Wrote: If the Democrats don't coalesce around a policy platform more substantive than not-Trump, they're toast, 

Hence why we lost in 2016. And 2004. HRC ran the John Kerry playbook.

Why ye lost in 2016 & 2004 wasn't down to policy (bad and all as that was*), it was down to vote stealing and vote supression. About 2.5m voters lost their votes in '04, and some counties voted over 100% republican. In 2016 the number of US citizens illegally disenfranchised was over 10m.

*Never trust a party whose economic and social platform is a slightly less extreme version of their oppositions. It does generally hurt electorally, see the European left from the '90s to today for example. But in the case of the US being "hard right, but with a half way convincing pretense at being empathetic" is still a vote winner.

Quote:We still have time. I fear if Sanders gets the nomination that a lot of Democrats who unfairly blame him for the lost election in 2016 will stay home out of spite on election day.

Personally, I'm looking forward to a Trump/Sanders showdown. I sincerely hope Sanders becomes the Dumbocrat candidate. Trump will win it handily, but it will be entertaining to watch. In spite of losing the House, Trump has a very good record to run on. Like him or not, he's had win after win in regards to N. Korea, China, trade, immigration, the economy, jobs, taxes.... Most of his supporters are willing to put up with his varied and sundry faults because he gets the job done. In fact Trump's Job Approval Rating was higher than Obama's during the mid-terms, and that cannot be attributed solely to the support of people who voted for him.

In 2016 Bernie Sanders had pretty much no record to go on, except for sponsoring bills to rename post offices and being in charge of oversight for the VA while veterans were literally dying before they could get appointments. Sure, there was that flap about Venezuela, but he had the good sense to avoid the fact that he had previously endorsed that country as a socialist success story while they were starving and rioting in the streets. So far, he hasn't really done much to improve his resume for 2020. Unfortunately though, poor Bernie has an even bigger problem than his lackluster performance as a Senator/human being...

Enter Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Hank Johnson had to have been pleased to see Ocasio-Cortez elected, because now he is no longer the stupidest elected official in Congress in the entire history of the country. That woman is going to do more damage to Bernies credibility than the left can even begin to imagine. When people hear ol' Bern nattering on about how communism and socialism are the bees knees, people will be thinking about the never ending flood of ignorance flowing from the mouth of self-proclaimed socialist Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. It's bad enough that she's an idiot, but she's a loud idiot. Lil' Miss Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is destined to become the Democratic Party's Sarah Palin, and Bernie Sanders personal albatros. 

In all honesty, the best hope for a Democratic Party Presidential win in 2020 is that the Republicans foolishly nominate someone other than Trump to run.

(December 7, 2018 at 2:20 am)Maketakunai Wrote:

Quote:We still have time. I fear if Sanders gets the nomination that a lot of Democrats who unfairly blame him for the lost election in 2016 will stay home out of spite on election day.

Personally, I'm looking forward to a Trump/Sanders showdown. I sincerely hope Sanders becomes the Dumbocrat candidate. Trump will win it handily, but it will be entertaining to watch. In spite of losing the House, Trump has a very good record to run on. Like him or not, he's had win after win in regards to N. Korea, China, trade, immigration, the economy, jobs, taxes.... Most of his supporters are willing to put up with his varied and sundry faults because he gets the job done. In fact Trump's Job Approval Rating was higher than Obama's during the mid-terms, and that cannot be attributed solely to the support of people who voted for him.

In 2016 Bernie Sanders had pretty much no record to go on, except for sponsoring bills to rename post offices and being in charge of oversight for the VA while veterans were literally dying before they could get appointments. Sure, there was that flap about Venezuela, but he had the good sense to avoid the fact that he had previously endorsed that country as a socialist success story while they were starving and rioting in the streets. So far, he hasn't really done much to improve his resume for 2020. Unfortunately though, poor Bernie has an even bigger problem than his lackluster performance as a Senator/human being...

Enter Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Hank Johnson had to have been pleased to see Ocasio-Cortez elected, because now he is no longer the stupidest elected official in Congress in the entire history of the country. That woman is going to do more damage to Bernies credibility than the left can even begin to imagine. When people hear ol' Bern nattering on about how communism and socialism are the bees knees, people will be thinking about the never ending flood of ignorance flowing from the mouth of self-proclaimed socialist Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. It's bad enough that she's an idiot, but she's a loud idiot. Lil' Miss Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is destined to become the Democratic Party's Sarah Palin, and Bernie Sanders personal albatros. 

In all honesty, the best hope for a Democratic Party Presidential win in 2020 is that the Republicans foolishly nominate someone other than Trump to run.

On the extremely remote chance that you're not either a troll or a sock, may I remind you ye lot picked a traitor who only got in because some rich white men decided to ignore the results of the election. Because they didn't steal enough votes before it.

I don't think the DNC will let Bernie be their candidate. As soon as he gets that designation, the democrats will be less and less "democrats" since Bernie is a socialist. If I had to guess, that's probably a big part of why they sabotaged his campaign in 2016. They're also not going to push for Biden just because he has had a lot of "suspect" behavior and they might just being shooting themselves in the foot if it is used against him, especially if he wins the primaries for the DNC.

(December 7, 2018 at 6:51 am)Wololo Wrote: [quote='T0 Th3 M4X' pid='1865434' dateline='1544181199']

Quote:I don't think the DNC will let Bernie be their candidate.  As soon as he gets that designation, the democrats will be less and less "democrats" since Bernie is a socialist.  If I had to guess, that's probably a big part of why they sabotaged his campaign in 2016.  They're also not going to push for Biden just because he has had a lot of "suspect" behavior and they might just being shooting themselves in the foot if it is used against him, especially if he wins the primaries for the DNC.

That actually makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, isn't the net result the same? It would appear to lead right back to the problem of the Democratic Party not having a strong enough candidate to beat The Donald. If not Bernie or Joe, then who else is there? 

The primaries are right around the proverbial corner, and the DNC is more concerned about getting Donald Trumps tax returns than they are about doing the nations business or finding a candidate for 2020...

---

Quote:On the extremely remote chance that you're not either a troll or a sock, may I remind you ye lot picked a traitor who only got in because some rich white men decided to ignore the results of the election. Because they didn't steal enough votes before it.

Your unsubstantiated opinion is not very well thought out. So, on the extremely remote chance that you aren't a complete idiot, may I remind you that "traitor" is a very specific charge, and if it had any basis in fact then Mike Pence would be our President right now. Clearly, you've noticed that he is not. Frankly, your use of hyperbole is beyond ridiculous.


As for "rich white men" ignoring the results of the election, I suggest you take a few moments sometime and learn about how our system of government works. It's a simple concept that even a child can master. So, if you take the time to become as smart as a 5th grader on the subject you will find that Hillary was defeated by geography. Since all of her supporters live in just a few states, she didn't have a chance to win the Electoral College. You have your rather bizarre opinion. I have mine. Unfortunately for you mathematics supports mine, because losing an election 304-227 just doesn't gel with your deranged claims of rich white men stealing votes. 

I have to agree that Ocasio-Cortez can be somewhat of a danger. I don't know that I'd number her among the tribe of the idiot, but it will be interesting to see how she fares.

The best hope for the Democratic party in 2020 is the continuation of the recent trend towards larger voter turnout. If 2020 repeats 2018, even relatively less than, Trump's chances will be greatly diminished. It's worthy of note that Trump's 2018 "wins" came in already Trump strong areas, as he largely avoided candidates and areas that would have put his strength to the test. He won't have that option in 2020.