(December 14, 2018 at 12:16 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote: As long as it's not scientifically proven that p-zombies don't exist reports from patients can't be reliable evidence of subjective experience.

Well that's one of the most backwards statements I've read in a while.

(December 14, 2018 at 12:16 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote:

(December 14, 2018 at 12:04 pm)Mathilda Wrote: How would you recognise qualia being generated?

By asking patients do they perceive new colors.

What about asking people who take hallucinogenic drugs? That can cause brains to generate new qualia. I've generated new qualia myself by taking lots of cannabis. So there you go, your belief has been disproved using the very criteria and standard of evidence that you have decided on.

I now expect you to move the goal posts.

(December 14, 2018 at 12:16 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote:

(December 14, 2018 at 12:04 pm)Mathilda Wrote: I am just asking you questions to demonstrate that from the outset you are not prepared to listen to any evidence whatever we may present so there is no reason for us to bother debating with you.

As long as it's not scientifically proven that p-zombies don't exist reports from patients can't be reliable evidence of subjective experience.

That's just the excuse you use. My point still stands. You have decided from the outset that you are not prepared to listen to any evidence whatever we may present so there is no reason for us to bother debating with you.

(December 14, 2018 at 12:21 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(December 14, 2018 at 12:16 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote: By asking patients do they perceive new colors.

What about asking people who take hallucinogenic drugs? That can cause brains to generate new qualia. I've generated new qualia myself by taking lots of cannabis.

Can you describe your experience?

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(December 14, 2018 at 12:21 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(December 14, 2018 at 12:16 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote: As long as it's not scientifically proven that p-zombies don't exist reports from patients can't be reliable evidence of subjective experience.

That's just the excuse you use. My point still stands. You have decided from the outset that you are not prepared to listen to any evidence whatever we may present so there is no reason for us to bother debating with you.

That doesn't change fact that p-zombies are possible.

(December 14, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote:

(December 14, 2018 at 12:21 pm)Mathilda Wrote: That's just the excuse you use. My point still stands. You have decided from the outset that you are not prepared to listen to any evidence whatever we may present so there is no reason for us to bother debating with you.

That doesn't change fact that p-zombies are possible.

Do you have any... whachamacallit... evidence that p-zombies can exist?

(December 14, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote:

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(December 14, 2018 at 12:21 pm)Mathilda Wrote: That's just the excuse you use. My point still stands. You have decided from the outset that you are not prepared to listen to any evidence whatever we may present so there is no reason for us to bother debating with you.

That doesn't change fact that p-zombies are possible.

How do you know p-zombies are possible?  The concept of a p-zombie was itself just a thought experiment.

(December 14, 2018 at 12:28 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(December 14, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote: That doesn't change fact that p-zombies are possible.

Do you have any...  whachamacallit... evidence that p-zombies can exist?

As long as scientists can't detect qualia directly anyone is potential p-zombie.

(December 14, 2018 at 12:30 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote:

(December 14, 2018 at 12:28 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Do you have any...  whachamacallit... evidence that p-zombies can exist?

As long as scientists can't detect qualia directly anyone is potential p-zombie.

So, until scientists prove p-zombies are impossible, they're possible?

Thread now lost to fantasy and delusion.

(December 14, 2018 at 4:20 am)Dmitry1983 Wrote: Brain is simply a transceiver. Consciousness is external.

No it is not. If that were possible for you to be separate from your brain, then it would be possible to survive decapitation. I hate to burst your bubble, but you are your brain in motion, nothing more. No, it isn't sexy to think of oneself as being finite, but humans are finite. Life after I die will feel the exact same way as it did for me 4 billion years ago when I didn't exist.

Consciousness is an emergent property in evolution, not a super natural thing.

(December 14, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Dmitry1983 Wrote:

(December 14, 2018 at 12:21 pm)Mathilda Wrote: What about asking people who take hallucinogenic drugs? That can cause brains to generate new qualia. I've generated new qualia myself by taking lots of cannabis.

Can you describe your experience?

Not easily no. I haven't experienced anything like it when not taking drugs. Words wouldn't do it justice, in the same way you couldn't describe seeing red to a blind person. I've never personally experienced an orgasm and no one can easily describe what that feels like to me. The best anyone's described to me how an orgasm is like, is when you need a really big shit and the relief you get when you can finally stop holding it in.

I have to admit, it doesn't really sell the idea to me.

There are plenty of other forms of qualia that I can describe though that I have only ever managed on cannabis. Music has so much more clarity for me, it's the equivalent of listening to music in stereo when you've only ever heard it in mono, but more so and there right inside my head where I almost feel like I could mentally reach out and touch the notes and experience their shape.