(December 20, 2018 at 4:34 pm)Amarok Wrote: So Benny's idea of getting rid of racism is to deny demographics exist and are treated differently

No, my idea is to apply solutions from the individual up, rather than from arbitrary group identities down. Each and every citizen has a set of responsibilities, and a set of expectations about safety, liberty, and opportunity. Those must be enforced jealously.

When you make an application policy, for example, there shouldn't be a sliding scale: "This guy is black, so he gets +10 points on our Acceptometer™ approval system." Instead, you identify him as someone from an underperforming school, a poor neighborhood, you look at the fact that he's been working 5 hours a day since middle school, and you realize that this is a person with a real interest in being a productive citizen. It's in the society's best interest to cultivate that, even if his GPA isn't a perfect 4.0.

Get this point. You can't say "black people are mistreated, so we need to provide benefits X and Y to black people." You have to be less lazy than that-- say "This particular (black) kid has been put down and limited in opportunity all his life, and now is our chance as a society to rectify that problem."

Unfortunately, discrimination is applied from the group on down, not from the individual on up..this is why group on down remedy is appropriate. Focusing on an individual is to ignore the problem for what it is.

Carry on.

White privilege is when you think the problems black people face are more about lack of income and education than about black people being targets of systemic racism.

(December 20, 2018 at 8:34 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Unfortunately, discrimination is applied from the group on down, not from the individual on up..this is why group on down remedy is appropriate. Focusing on an individual is to ignore the problem for what it is.

Carry on.

Until there's an individual interaction, then there's nothing but an abstract idea in the ether.  It's when someone refuses an applicant, and it's found out that the accepted applicant had inferior qualities-- or when a student who's got a B+ average and has been working 5 hours a day gets rejected in favor of a rich kid who has nothing to do but study, that racism matters.

It IS a collection of individual acts and statements, because it's not possible to act on a group without interfacing it through the individual members in it.

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(December 20, 2018 at 8:42 pm)Grandizer Wrote: White privilege is when you think the problems black people face are more about lack of income and education than about black people being targets of systemic racism.

You have to find specific cases, and then seek to remedy them.

For example, white police sometimes shoot black civilians.  I'm not a police officer, and I do not need to be involved in any redress.  "White people" didn't shoot those black kids-- it was a small number of individuals-- and they need to be fired, jailed and sued for every penny they have, or ever will.

The same goes for schools. Just because a school doesn't have a lot of black students doesn't mean it's racist toward black students. At worst, it means that the criteria in place for acceptance are too narrow.

Let me ask you a simple question-- if a white student and black student apply for a spot, and the white student has better grades and better SAT scores, how would you determine whether a black student should be given the spot? What specific, quantifiable criteria would you put in place? +10 points if you identify as "black?" What about if you have one white parent? 3 white grandparents? What if you are Rachel Dolezal, and aren't black at all, but identify with black culture as you see it?

It's nice to want to help a group you think is disenfranchised or unjustly held back. But how, exactly, would you as a school administrator decide which students to accept or reject? How do you weight color against grades, or family income against hard work spent studying?

(December 21, 2018 at 12:45 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(December 20, 2018 at 8:42 pm)Grandizer Wrote: White privilege is when you think the problems black people face are more about lack of income and education than about black people being targets of systemic racism.

You have to find specific cases, and then seek to remedy them.

And remedy the root cause as well, when necessary and possible.

Quote:For example, white police sometimes shoot black civilians.  I'm not a police officer, and I do not need to be involved in any redress.  "White people" didn't shoot those black kids-- it was a small number of individuals-- and they need to be fired, jailed and sued for every penny they have, or ever will.

We also need to address why it is that it is easier for police officers to shoot unarmed black civilians than those who happen to be white. Your solution doesn't take that into consideration.

Quote:The same goes for schools.  Just because a school doesn't have a lot of black students doesn't mean it's racist toward black students.  At worst, it means that the criteria in place for acceptance are too narrow.

Institutional racism/discrimination nowadays is not overt and/or direct, but more on the subtle, indirect, and unconscious/subconscious side. So a good question to ask in this hypothetical/real scenario is why it is that the criteria set in place are too narrow.

Quote:Let me ask you a simple question-- if a white student and black student apply for a spot, and the white student has better grades and better SAT scores, how would you determine whether a black student should be given the spot?

Maybe by not making it only about scores/grades, and by understanding that SAT scores specifically tend to indicate privilege rather than aptitude when it comes to black vs. white groups. How about making sure admissions tests are as culture-fair as possible first?

Quote:What specific, quantifiable criteria would you put in place?  +10 points if you identify as "black?"

It's not only about specific, quantifiable criteria, and never has been only about that. A good part of the admission process is, and should be, subjective and ideally individualized.

Quote:What about if you have one white parent?  3 white grandparents?  What if you are Rachel Dolezal, and aren't black at all, but identify with black culture as you see it?

Depends on various factors here, such as how is the individual person being perceived as societally speaking.

Quote:It's nice to want to help a group you think is disenfranchised or unjustly held back.  But how, exactly, would you as a school administrator decide which students to accept or reject?  How do you weight color against grades, or family income against hard work spent studying?

Look at the stats, acknowledge the inequality that is observed and be honest about what the factors are that are leading to this, then address accordingly.

(December 23, 2018 at 4:53 am)Grandizer Wrote: It's not only about specific, quantifiable criteria, and never has been only about that. A good part of the admission process is, and should be, subjective and ideally individualized.

You have two choices. Quantify criteria, or allow judges to arbitrate. If fairness of the system is in question due to bias of arbitrators, then you should want to remove the effects of arbitration.

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(December 23, 2018 at 4:53 am)Grandizer Wrote: Look at the stats, acknowledge the inequality that is observed and be honest about what the factors are that are leading to this, then address accordingly.

I'm sorry, dude, I've got to call bullshit at this point. If you yourself, someone who clearly has a deep vested interest in selection being done in a particular way, cannot describe the method of selection more precisely than "address accordingly," then you have no right to criticize those who are currently entrusted with selection.

Either arbitrators have clear-cut guidelines, or they will select applicants according to their own bias (read: prejudices).

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(December 23, 2018 at 4:53 am)Grandizer Wrote: Maybe by not making it only about scores/grades, and by understanding that SAT scores specifically tend to indicate privilege rather than aptitude when it comes to black vs. white groups. How about making sure admissions tests are as culture-fair as possible first?

Culture-fair, as in not accepting grades, IQ tests, SAT tests? You know that we're talking about a place of higher learning, right?

What methods would you use to indicate "aptitude rather than privilege," if not testing? What could possibly be more fair than having all applicants do the exact same test? Do we really want surgeons or engineers who are appointed based on a general sense of cultural fairness and balance? Or do we want the smartest mother-fuckers who step up to the table? You'd better have a pretty compelling method of demonstrating that "culture-fair" isn't just a euphemism for "not that smart, but who are we to tell him he can't be a doctor if he wants to?"

(December 23, 2018 at 10:08 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(December 23, 2018 at 4:53 am)Grandizer Wrote: It's not only about specific, quantifiable criteria, and never has been only about that. A good part of the admission process is, and should be, subjective and ideally individualized.

You have two choices.  Quantify criteria, or allow judges to arbitrate.   If fairness of the system is in question due to bias of arbitrators, then you should want to remove the effects of arbitration.

Both options together can work, so long as there is of course awareness of racial biases and such, and so long as it's not one person making all the selection decisions.

Quote:Culture-fair, as in not accepting grades, IQ tests, SAT tests?  You know that we're talking about a place of higher learning, right?

And you know these tests are often tailored to white students, right?

Can you imagine a white student doing as well as black students on this BITCH test?
http://web.archive.org/web/2011071512573...eneity.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Inte...omogeneity

Quote:What methods would you use to indicate "aptitude rather than privilege," if not testing?  What could possibly be more fair than having all applicants do the exact same test?  Do we really want surgeons or engineers who are appointed based on a general sense of cultural fairness and balance?  Or do we want the smartest mother-fuckers who step up to the table?  You'd better have a pretty compelling method of demonstrating that "culture-fair" isn't just a euphemism for "not that smart, but who are we to tell him he can't be a doctor if he wants to?"

You know, you could do a little better at hiding your racist attitude towards black people. Black people do not have a problem with lack of intelligence. And that's where the problem lies. Smart people (just as smart as any one else) not having the right opportunities like others to thrive and have their best potentials actualized.

And it's not up to me (or you thankfully, for that matter) to provide the exact methods. That's up to those who specialize in those fields.

(December 23, 2018 at 7:48 pm)Grandizer Wrote: You know, you could do a little better at hiding your racist attitude towards black people. Black people do not have a problem with lack of intelligence. And that's where the problem lies. Smart people (just as smart as any one else) not having the right opportunities like others to thrive and have their best potentials actualized.

And it's not up to me (or you thankfully, for that matter) to provide the exact methods. That's up to those who specialize in those fields.

Have I said, ever, that black people are less intelligent than white people? Nope, not even in the thread which was about IQ, income, and race. And in THAT thread, I was the only one who suggest pragmatic steps one might take actually to close the gap. I'm so racist that I advocated releasing prisoners who had received abnormally harsh sentences, and giving them real financial incentives for productivity and non-repeat-offending-- wonder who those might be, hmmmm?

I've suggested methods specifically meant to reduce bias in screening-- like a blind screening process, which would 100% remove cultural bias-- which you shot down anyway, for some reason. But eventually, you need some metric to determine which students will perform better. The best available education is important to all human beings-- I'd categorize it as a right-- and you'd damn well better have a metric better than skin color when you tell some kids that they won't be going to Harvard because they sunburn too easily.

You know, you had a lot to say about this issue right up until I asked the question HOW. You do not like the way universities select students. Fine. You should be able to show that the current system is flawed, and suggest improvements. Otherwise, you're just virtue signalling, and you are really not likely to contribute to a real solution to a problem you supposedly care deeply about.

I, right now, can list half a dozen metrics which would increase the percentage of black students accepted into universities without being explicitly racist in nature. Why can't you?

(December 24, 2018 at 12:09 am)bennyboy Wrote: I've suggested methods specifically meant to reduce bias in screening-- like a blind screening process, which would 100% remove cultural bias-- which you shot down anyway, for some reason.

Because it's not true that this would 100% remove cultural bias, and I pointed out why that is. It doesn't matter if you make it a blind screening process. The way the tests are written, and the circumstances that lead to proficiency in these tests, mean black students will continue to be at a disadvantage compared to white students because the environmental factors clearly favor white over black students. Hence, the need for race-based affirmative action.

Quote:But eventually, you need some metric to determine which students will perform better.  The best available education is important to all human beings-- I'd categorize it as a right-- and you'd damn well better have a metric better than skin color when you tell some kids that they won't be going to Harvard because they sunburn too easily.

Again, privilege plays an important contributing role when it comes to better performance with respect to privileged vs. not-so-privileged groups. How about you stop pretending you have such awesome solutions for these problems and instead listen to what black people themselves have to say on this matter. The more you continue to speak with such white privilege, dismissing the actual struggles (and the extent of those struggles) that black people face, the less time you have to empathize with them and the less time you have to realize you really don't know shit.

(December 24, 2018 at 1:08 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(December 24, 2018 at 12:09 am)bennyboy Wrote: I've suggested methods specifically meant to reduce bias in screening-- like a blind screening process, which would 100% remove cultural bias-- which you shot down anyway, for some reason.

Because it's not true that this would 100% remove cultural bias, and I pointed out why that is. It doesn't matter if you make it a blind screening process. The way the tests are written, and the circumstances that lead to proficiency in these tests, mean black students will continue to be at a disadvantage compared to white students because the environmental factors clearly favor white over black students. Hence, the need for race-based affirmative action.

Quote:But eventually, you need some metric to determine which students will perform better.  The best available education is important to all human beings-- I'd categorize it as a right-- and you'd damn well better have a metric better than skin color when you tell some kids that they won't be going to Harvard because they sunburn too easily.

Again, privilege plays an important contributing role when it comes to better performance with respect to privileged vs. not-so-privileged groups. How about you stop pretending you have such awesome solutions for these problems and instead listen to what black people themselves have to say on this matter. The more you continue to speak with such white privilege, dismissing the actual struggles (and the extent of those struggles) that black people face, the less time you have to empathize with them and the less time you have to realize you really don't know shit.

Oh stfu about my privilege.  I grew up on the streets (well, basically in my middle school and high school years) trying to prevent dirty old men from raping me behind dumpsters.  I was in fact NOT accepted into a top college-- I went to a shitty one, busted my ass, and transferred to a top school based on my grades. Nor did I have any of the additional scholarships which were presented to aboriginal Canadians or other minorities-- I did it all on a student loan, which took me many years to pay off.

Okay so here's what we have so far from you:
1)  Grades and entrance exams, being somehow unfair, shouldn't be used in admitting students to school.
2)  The decision is therefore left to arbitration-- but you accuse the system of bias, which means the arbitrators are biased.

What's left?  I guess you are going to say that the process should be arbitrated, but by a special committee with "sensitivity training backgrounds," which means that all the favored minorities of the day will gain easy acceptance, and white and Asian students, no matter how hard they've worked or how smart they are, will be expected to give way in the name of "fairness."

Have you considered that not only entrance, but also all subjects are "culturally biased?" and that the kids you shuffle through the door, if they had bad SAT scores, are not going to be literate enough to read complex medical textbooks, or research law texts written in very formal and archaic language?  Have considered that the purpose of SAT scores isn't to punish people who get bad scores, but to make sure they don't waste 4 years of their lives chasing a dream that their own limitations will make nearly impossible?

If you want to take equal candidates, and make sure that black ones are given preference, I'm okay with that.  But if you want to throw out testing as a basis of acceptance, then you're a real fool. You're not helping anyone by letting them get in over their heads-- in fact, you are seriously damaging the classroom experience of those students academically astute and intellectually gifted enough to gain acceptance through testing.