(December 27, 2018 at 2:13 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(December 27, 2018 at 10:03 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: I agree.  Benny, you're a dick.  3 out of 5 TV doctors agree.

No doubt.  That's why my wife ran away and my dog divorced me.  I feel the same about you.  <3

The obvious stated and replied to, then why don't you say what particular methods YOU would enact to make things more fair?  By what specific criteria would YOU tell one student he's narrowly missed his dream, and another that he's got a path to his dream because of melanin?

Since affirmative action doesn't do this, it seems like a silly thing to wonder about.  While Whitey fears reverse racism...as is the case with so many other fears like it, it's unfounded.  Between equally qualified candidates, in education or on the job...the white guy gets it the crushing majority of the time.  Affirmative action policies are the only thing that gets either category even close to representative of our demographics. Since that's the issue that affirmative action policies are enacted to remedy, it seems like they're a swell solution to that problem. This entire line of questioning is a tiresome exercise in sticking your head in the sand.

(December 27, 2018 at 11:39 am)Grandizer Wrote: Still dismissing the reality of systemic discrimination, I see.

Anyway, who assigned you as the authority on these matters? You act like you know more than the people who have been devoting their lives to working on solutions to these problems.

Cherry-picking posts to support your prejudices toward me is bad manners. I've explicitly agreed that there's real race-based discrimination.

As for authority-- this is a forum thread, and this is the direction it has gone. We are here to share ideas-- of which, given how important you seem to think the subject is, you've had a pretty profound lack.

I could list (and have) at least half a dozen strategies for addressing the clusterfuck of stats that are weighted against the black demographic, while not requiring racial profiling as an essential mechanism. And this is the biggest danger of racial profiling at the point of entry (say into Harvard)-- it's a piss-poor substitute for the very important programs and incentives which would be required to make a general change in real achievement levels which would actually wipe out those biases. What the US needs is to be pumping out young black Einsteins, not to ignore a kid for 17 years and then shoo him into Harvard on a race-based balancing policy.

Do you think prospective employers are saying, "Well, gee golly, a Harvard degree. We'd be lucky to have this guy!" or are they thinking, "Hmmmm. . . how can we get our hands on this guy's SAT scores to see if he was shooed in on a balancing policy?" Or. . . more likely. . . they've just going to steer clear because they don't know if the guy's credentials match real academic ability?

Sure, you'll cry racism again, and you won't be wrong. But policies that are based on racial profiling are going to compound the effect, because real achievements, when they are made, will be clouded by doubts about their legitimacy, and that should be painfully and immediately obvious to anyone who has a brain-- "authority" or not.

-and there it is again, white greivance, lol.  A black harvard degree is, at least in your mind, somehow less legitimate or more suspicious than a white harvard degree.  Those nefarious blacks are the preferred children of the state....and deserving whites are being cast to the wayside on the altar of political correctness and diversity.

Or..you know...literally none of that is happening.  50/50.

If you want to find suspicious or "illegitimate" harvard degrees....you'd probably want to start your search in the white demo with legacy students.

(December 27, 2018 at 3:24 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(December 27, 2018 at 2:13 pm)bennyboy Wrote: No doubt.  That's why my wife ran away and my dog divorced me.  I feel the same about you.  <3

The obvious stated and replied to, then why don't you say what particular methods YOU would enact to make things more fair?  By what specific criteria would YOU tell one student he's narrowly missed his dream, and another that he's got a path to his dream because of melanin?

Since affirmative action doesn't do this, it seems like a silly thing to wonder about.  While Whitey fears reverse racism...as is the case with so many other fears like it, it's unfounded.  Between equally qualified candidates, in education or on the job...the white guy gets it the crushing majority of the time.  Affirmative action policies are the only thing that gets either category even close to representative of our demographics.  Since that's the issue that affirmative action policies are enacted to remedy, it seems like they're a swell solution to that problem.  This entire line of questioning is a tiresome exercise in sticking your head in the sand.

What it does is devalue the real achievements of actual black academics, by giving "also ran" trophies to students who are accepted on the basis of skin color despite lower grades or entrance exam scores.  Harvard attendance by black students up?  Great!  Problem solved, right?  Except it's not, because employers (quite rightly) know that the academic requirements for entrance were likely skewed, and they will have a very hard time sorting out the truly academic gifted from the shoo-ins.  Racial profiling will ironically have the effect of making a black Harvard degree seen as less valuable than a white one.

Here's what you need to repeat to yourself until it really sinks in.  Affirmative action policies are not a step up for lazy undeserving minorities. 

They're not a step up at all...unless you consider stepping onto a level playing field stepping up.  They don't exist so that some low score student can get into a program..but so that programs don't end up being a field of lily white faces for no reason other than the noted, historic, and current racial biases in selection.  That's it, that's all.    We noticed that programs and fields were so vastly unrepresentative of their applicant pool and the overall demographics of our country that we could no longer...in good faith..maintain that racism wasn't at play. All of this blah blah blah is the grounding logic for modern white supremacy in the us...and as much as you may sincerely believe it to be true, it was sold to you with peak cynicism. Just as our current admin is using asian students as a racial wedge. They don't actually give a fuck about asian students, or equality, or who deserves what. Support for "race blind" policies plummets in the face of an over-representation from exceptional asian students, for example. So consider, before you post your next trope...where they came from. Consider the likelihood of their being propagandists little white lies, lol.

(December 27, 2018 at 3:33 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: -and there it is again, white greivance, lol.  A black harvard degree is, at least in your mind, somehow less legitimate or more suspicious than a white harvard degree.  Those nefarious blacks are the preferred children of the state....and deserving whites are being cast to the wayside on the altar of political correctness and diversity.

Or..you know...literally none of that is happening.  50/50.

If you want to find suspicious or "illegitimate" harvard degrees....you'd probably want to start your search in the white demo with legacy students.

Is an "also ran" trophy less valuable than a hard-run 1st-place?  Of course.  I'll say it straight-up: if there were no race-based balancing policies at the entrance level, the value attributed to minority-race holders of ivy-league degrees would be very much higher.  How and why would it be otherwise?

As for worrying about white people-- no, that's not what we're talking about.  As I said before, if America is going to survive against more homogeneous superpowers like Russia and China, it's going to have to fire on all cylinders.  That means getting every citizen to reach as close to their potential as possible.  Leaving the next Einstein on a street corner because he's black, or failing to get a kid to the point where he could even be recognized as such because his educational opportunities pre-elementary were too severely limited (remember our discussion about heritability), would be a fatal mistake.  (and, just to be clear here, I think America is so fucking backward and broken that it will be in our lifetimes that it is replaced as the world's top anything)

Affirmative action is not an "also ran" trophy.  You really...really.......... need to scrub that shit right out of your mouth and mind, lol.  It's not only wrong, it's the propaganda of a bunch of sheet wearing sister fuckers, lol.

(December 27, 2018 at 3:38 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Here's what you need to repeat to yourself until it really sinks in.  Affirmative action policies are not a step up for lazy undeserving minorities. 

They're not a step up at all...unless you consider stepping onto a level playing field stepping up.  They don't exist so that some low score student can get into a program..but so that programs don't end up being a field of lily white faces for no reason other than the noted, historic, and current racial biases in selection.  That's it, that's all.    We noticed that programs and fields were so vastly unrepresentative of their applicant pool and the overall demographics of our country that we could no longer...in good faith..maintain that racism wasn't at play.  All of this blah blah blah is the grounding logic for modern white supremacy in the us...and as much as you may sincerely believe it to be true, it was sold to you with peak cynicism.  Just as our current admin is using asian students as a racial wedge.  They don't actually give a fuck about asian students, or equality, or who deserves what.  Support for "race blind" policies plummets in the face of an over-representation from exceptional asian students, for example.  So consider, before you post your next trope...where they came from.  Consider the likelihood of their being propagandists little white lies, lol.

Racial biases like academic tests as a predictor of academic success?  Or of academic success as a predictor of professional success?  Or of professional success as a predictor of income?  Which biases, exactly, are you referring to, that would exist in a purely blind application process (ID numbers instead of names, no pictures, and so on)?

You spin quite the narrative, but the problem is that the "solution" doesn't solve the problem.  It gives an illusion of solution that lasts just long enough to take a good fart-sniffing whiff.  If you want a real solution, you have to start at the cradle, and support a citizen right through the whole process of development.  Because if you don't (and you wont'), America is fucked.

The solution solves the only problem it -can- solve.  Vast under representation of minorities in academic and professional settings. 

Sure, we have to support all of our citizens cradle to grave, and we largely don't....but even if we did ....there would still be systemic and institutional racism in the US. That's why "race blind" policies don't work....to solve that problem, even though I'm sure they could solve a whole host of others.
(we actually do have states with affirmative action bans...the result of that is predictable)

The short story, Benny..is that affirmative action is not what you've been told it is, it does not do what you think it does. I can't make that simpler or clearer. For no reason other than having swallowed inaccurate white supremacist propaganda, you've turned yourself into a dick, yelling at clouds. Which..and correct me if I'm wrong here, probably wasn't your intention or even remotely how you see yourself.

(December 27, 2018 at 3:49 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Affirmative action is not an "also ran" trophy.  You really...really.......... need to scrub that shit right out of your mouth and mind, lol.  It's not only wrong, it's the propaganda of a bunch of sheet wearing sister fuckers, lol.

On what basis are black kids getting accepted to Harvard, when their school grades and SAT scores are an order of magnitude lower than those of Asian kids?  See, my view is that a university is an academic institution, and that applications should be accepted based on their academic achievements and potential.

Let's pull out the list of euphemisms: "they will become engaged participants and leaders in an increasingly diverse, complex society."  Yep, those are the cornerstones of academic achievement, hey?

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(December 27, 2018 at 3:59 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: The solution solves the only problem it -can- solve.  Vast under representation of minorities in academic and professional settings. 

You sure about that last one?