Good luck with that.

(December 31, 2018 at 2:18 pm)Angelina Wrote:

(December 30, 2018 at 11:33 pm)possibletarian Wrote: *bold mine*
Again Angelina you are basing everything simply on belief that a god must be responsible, try dropping 'if not god then'' or ''I find it hard to believe without..'', they really are nothing more than decelerations of faith.

What do terms like 'come to exist' even mean, how do you know they are simply not part of a process for instance ?  

Try simply asking how something works, if the answer is we don't know, then that's the answer, no need to add a god in anywhere.

Again try reading this link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/2014110...ist-at-all

And try and answer this question.

How can i tell the difference between faith and no god at all ?

Did you really read that article? Popped into existence from nothing at all? That is ludicrous. Look at everything in our universe and on our planet!

Did you read it, ? I suspect you simply read the title from that reply, it does fit very well with what we know about the universe.

Now this is very important.. How can i tell the difference between faith and no god at all ?

(December 31, 2018 at 5:11 pm)polymath257 Wrote:

(December 31, 2018 at 4:05 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Don't know what?

Maybe that's why I'm asking questions.

---

More whataboutism.  Also based on a false premise.  No reason to take this seriously as an objection.  As far as the example, you are welcome to dispute it if you disagree.

---

From the Merriam Webster Dictionary (source linked)

God - capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as

a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind

___

There are also three other definitions from this dictionary.  For the sake of discussion, I would propose 1a.

OK, so that is (sort of) a definition. Why would anyone think such a being exists? For that matter, how is 'perfection' defined in this context? What scale is used?

It's probably best just to assume that as the definition, then either take a positive/negative position on the subject as defined by those things attributed, but noted that you think it's "sort of" a definition.  Hopefully that's fair, and we can work from this on the same page.

To answer your "why" question, I know from personal experience.   Over time it adds us, and you come to that conclusion.  Some is based on the objective, and some of it is subjective.   I can't say everybody assumes God in the same fashion, because I'm not everybody else.  But regardless, I think it's fair to say that's it's not just us coming to that conclusion, but God taking the journey to, and meeting us in the middle.  You seek with openness and to understand.  That doesn't mean you can't ask questions or challenge things along the way, but you do it with your heart in the right place.

I'm just going to assume you're a guy, but if I'm wrong, then feel free to punch.   Anyway, if you're trying to meet a nice girl, how are you going to go about it?  Are you going to find her by giving your worst or your best?  More than likely, you'll spot a possible candidate, and you'll give her your best.  You'll have your shoes spit shined, be wearing a nice outfit, and cleaned up so you're smelling nice rather than like a rotten shoe.  You'll have an open heart, and hopefully she's receptive to you in a similar fashion.  I believe in that same fashion, we can not only know God exists, but know God.  We start with ourselves and we work outward.  Put that whole process in reverse.  If you give your worst, who in their right mind is going to want to want that?  And if another person wouldn't, then no reason to expect God would either.

(I'm sure you're going to want more, but that's at least a start)

As far as perfection, I would suggest positive qualities both inward and outward.  What makes a circle perfect?  Both it's form and function.  We know all points on its outer edges are equidistant from it's center point.  As such, the form makes it highly efficient.  I'm sure we could get more technical about it, but I think so far it's a fair statement. 

With the scale, I dunno that there needs to be one.  Can you provide more detail as to why you would need a scale?

Gotta play a game with a friend.  Will jump back on in about an hour or so to try and respond.

(December 31, 2018 at 4:05 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

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(December 31, 2018 at 1:16 pm)wyzas Wrote: Then according to your analogy you have the equivalent of the mind of an anorexic, not about food, but with god or religion?

More whataboutism.  Also based on a false premise.  No reason to take this seriously as an objection.  As far as the example, you are welcome to dispute it if you disagree.

More like puttingyourfootinyourmouthism. I didn't make the analogy, you did. I just recognized the thought process error, either your's (bad analogy) or the religious folks (cognitive disorder).

(December 31, 2018 at 5:39 pm)wyzas Wrote:

(December 31, 2018 at 4:05 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

---

More whataboutism.  Also based on a false premise.  No reason to take this seriously as an objection.  As far as the example, you are welcome to dispute it if you disagree.

More like puttingyourfootinyourmouthism. I didn't make the analogy, you did. I just recognized the thought process error, either your's (bad analogy) or the religious folks (cognitive disorder).

You attempted to switch the context and used a false premise in the process.  If you have a valid objection, then just state it.  If not, no reason to spout fallacies.  If your objection is valid, it should speak on its own.

(December 31, 2018 at 7:10 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

(December 31, 2018 at 5:39 pm)wyzas Wrote: More like puttingyourfootinyourmouthism. I didn't make the analogy, you did. I just recognized the thought process error, either your's (bad analogy) or the religious folks (cognitive disorder).

You attempted to switch the context and used a false premise in the process.  If you have a valid objection, then just state it.  If not, no reason to spout fallacies.  If your objection is valid, it should speak on its own.

(December 31, 2018 at 5:39 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

(December 31, 2018 at 5:11 pm)polymath257 Wrote: OK, so that is (sort of) a definition. Why would anyone think such a being exists? For that matter, how is 'perfection' defined in this context? What scale is used?

It's probably best just to assume that as the definition, then either take a positive/negative position on the subject as defined by those things attributed, but noted that you think it's "sort of" a definition.  Hopefully that's fair, and we can work from this on the same page.

To answer your "why" question, I know from personal experience.   Over time it adds us, and you come to that conclusion.  Some is based on the objective, and some of it is subjective.   I can't say everybody assumes God in the same fashion, because I'm not everybody else.  But regardless, I think it's fair to say that's it's not just us coming to that conclusion, but God taking the journey to, and meeting us in the middle.  You seek with openness and to understand.  That doesn't mean you can't ask questions or challenge things along the way, but you do it with your heart in the right place.

I'm just going to assume you're a guy, but if I'm wrong, then feel free to punch.   Anyway, if you're trying to meet a nice girl, how are you going to go about it?  Are you going to find her by giving your worst or your best?  More than likely, you'll spot a possible candidate, and you'll give her your best.  You'll have your shoes spit shined, be wearing a nice outfit, and cleaned up so you're smelling nice rather than like a rotten shoe.  You'll have an open heart, and hopefully she's receptive to you in a similar fashion.  I believe in that same fashion, we can not only know God exists, but know God.  We start with ourselves and we work outward.  Put that whole process in reverse.  If you give your worst, who in their right mind is going to want to want that?  And if another person wouldn't, then no reason to expect God would either.

Hmmm...that isn't how I approach things at all. In this situation, I would be myself. I would ask questions seeking to see who she is and how she thinks and see if there is compatibility. I  don't wear shoes that can be spit shined and my outfit will be pretty much the same as what I wear every other day. Putting on an act to pick up someone seems way too manipulative for my taste.

But, now, there is a HUGE difference between introducing myself to a woman that I find interesting and the situation with deitie(s). I know the woman exists. She is right there and visible. I *don't* know that any deities exist. Furthermore, I know from talking to a wide range of people that the views on deities varies wildly as to their properties. It looks like most people's views of their deity is more a mirror on who they are than any type of description of a creator of the universe.

Quote:(I'm sure you're going to want more, but that's at least a start)

As far as perfection, I would suggest positive qualities both inward and outward.  What makes a circle perfect?  Both it's form and function.  We know all points on its outer edges are equidistant from it's center point.  As such, the form makes it highly efficient.  I'm sure we could get more technical about it, but I think so far it's a fair statement. 

No, a 'perfect circle' is just the same as a 'circle'. All *real* circles are approximations of the formal mathematical concept.

Quote:With the scale, I dunno that there needs to be one.  Can you provide more detail as to why you would need a scale?

Gotta play a game with a friend.  Will jump back on in about an hour or so to try and respond.

Well, a scale in the sense of 'more' or 'less'. To have 'perfection' means there is some way of evaluation. A way of ordering things based on that judgment.

And, well, I don't find 'good' and 'wise' to be notions that make much sense outside of very limited human concerns.

(December 31, 2018 at 7:22 pm)polymath257 Wrote:

(December 31, 2018 at 5:39 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: It's probably best just to assume that as the definition, then either take a positive/negative position on the subject as defined by those things attributed, but noted that you think it's "sort of" a definition.  Hopefully that's fair, and we can work from this on the same page.

To answer your "why" question, I know from personal experience.   Over time it adds us, and you come to that conclusion.  Some is based on the objective, and some of it is subjective.   I can't say everybody assumes God in the same fashion, because I'm not everybody else.  But regardless, I think it's fair to say that's it's not just us coming to that conclusion, but God taking the journey to, and meeting us in the middle.  You seek with openness and to understand.  That doesn't mean you can't ask questions or challenge things along the way, but you do it with your heart in the right place.

I'm just going to assume you're a guy, but if I'm wrong, then feel free to punch.   Anyway, if you're trying to meet a nice girl, how are you going to go about it?  Are you going to find her by giving your worst or your best?  More than likely, you'll spot a possible candidate, and you'll give her your best.  You'll have your shoes spit shined, be wearing a nice outfit, and cleaned up so you're smelling nice rather than like a rotten shoe.  You'll have an open heart, and hopefully she's receptive to you in a similar fashion.  I believe in that same fashion, we can not only know God exists, but know God.  We start with ourselves and we work outward.  Put that whole process in reverse.  If you give your worst, who in their right mind is going to want to want that?  And if another person wouldn't, then no reason to expect God would either.

Hmmm...that isn't how I approach things at all. In this situation, I would be myself. I would ask questions seeking to see who she is and how she thinks and see if there is compatibility. I  don't wear shoes that can be spit shined and my outfit will be pretty much the same as what I wear every other day. Putting on an act to pick up someone seems way too manipulative for my taste.

But, now, there is a HUGE difference between introducing myself to a woman that I find interesting and the situation with deitie(s). I know the woman exists. She is right there and visible. I *don't* know that any deities exist. Furthermore, I know from talking to a wide range of people that the views on deities varies wildly as to their properties. It looks like most people's views of their deity is more a mirror on who they are than any type of description of a creator of the universe.

Quote:(I'm sure you're going to want more, but that's at least a start)

As far as perfection, I would suggest positive qualities both inward and outward.  What makes a circle perfect?  Both it's form and function.  We know all points on its outer edges are equidistant from it's center point.  As such, the form makes it highly efficient.  I'm sure we could get more technical about it, but I think so far it's a fair statement. 

No, a 'perfect circle' is just the same as a 'circle'. All *real* circles are approximations of the formal mathematical concept.

Quote:With the scale, I dunno that there needs to be one.  Can you provide more detail as to why you would need a scale?

Gotta play a game with a friend.  Will jump back on in about an hour or so to try and respond.

Well, a scale in the sense of 'more' or 'less'. To have 'perfection' means there is some way of evaluation. A way of ordering things based on that judgment.

And, well, I don't find 'good' and 'wise' to be notions that make much sense outside of very limited human concerns.

- You don't need to shine your shoes.  You just put some care in it, like you would with meeting a girl.  The shining shoes bit was just some extra "fluff" if you will.

- You could know she exists, but maybe you don't.  If you're a single dude looking for a babe, you're probably not going to go to the party in a oil stained shirt and unbrushed teeth.  I agree it's a little different, but if your approach is negative, then you'll probably get negativity back.  I'm not suggesting that is proof, but it's how you get there.

- I don't know that the deity is a reflection.  If I'm honest with myself, I don't often meet the standards I should, but it's me who is the problem.  I can be hardheaded and lack empathy sometimes. But a lot of times I do get things right with my attitude and behavior.  A lot of those "right" things are based on my belief in God.

- I don't know that scales are necessary to determine a relationship with someone or even knowing them just because.  Back to the girl, does she have to be a "10" or do you even have to assume a value to her?  Is she perfect to you even when she makes mistakes?  If you're like me, that's part of what makes her perfect.  She's not you, but you still have something in common.  Sometimes it's the randomness of the experiences.  I don't need to measure those things.   What I do need to do is embrace them, but then again, that's me.  As an individual, I don't put myself in a position to try to put God on a scale and rate.  I also don't believe I have the authority to do such.  Of course, we all see life differently.  When we're old and grey, hopefully we can put all the pieces together and be happy with the result.

Quote:Back to the girl, does she have to be a "10" or do you even have to assume a value to her? 

'I've never fucked a "10", but one night I fucked five "2"s.' - George Carlin

Boru

(December 31, 2018 at 5:33 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(December 31, 2018 at 2:18 pm)Angelina Wrote: Did you really read that article? Popped into existence from nothing at all? That is ludicrous. Look at everything in our universe and on our planet!

Did you read it, ? I suspect you simply read the title from that reply, it does fit very well with what we know about the universe.

Now this is very important.. How can i tell the difference between faith and no god at all ?

I did, but what I am having a hard time understanding is how can you accept that as your explanation for the existence of life and everything else that exists on this planet. There is evidence of something with a greater mind than human practically everywhere you look, and then there is the fact of life itself. I guess the difference between us is that I see the absolute necessity for God everywhere I look, and you see something you believe can just happen randomly out of the blue. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around what you believe, and how you are able to believe it.