(January 12, 2019 at 1:29 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Atlass, we would love nothing more than to leave the middle east entirely. But sorry, with Sunnis and Shiites, Saudi Arabia and Iran, and Israel at each other's throats. Maybe it would be better if both Saudi Arabia and Iran to give up on their religious run governments.  Europe went through their Christian version during the Dark Ages, and even in America because of religious bullshit, even we treated Native Americans and blacks and women like shit.

None of what I said means America gets everything right. But you are over simplifying a complex region full of many different sects and powers that are still unfortunately stuck in a dark age religious past, including too many Israelis.

The three religions have been fighting over that region for centuries. Maybe Muslims and Jews and Christians need to face the fact religion is a very easy way for powers to get their respective societies to die in these wars.

And yes Atlass, land is fought over, not just for religious reasons, but for control over resources. Other species fight for control over resources too. Mammals like elephants, and lions, especially males, can be very territorial. Humans are no different.

Without the west -especially the British Empire-, there wouldn't be either Saudi Arabia or Israel in the first place.

The Sykes-Picot agreement created all this mess; and it is a western invention executed by western hands, with the help of local traitors that acted like a proxy for the western powers behind the agreement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%8..._Agreement

The native Americans were treated like shit partly because of religion, and partly because of racism. White European culture proved to be very very racist in many occasions. Now the good people in Europe started to shrink and we are seeing the disgusting rise of the right once again.

We have brains, we should share those resources not fight over them.

(January 12, 2019 at 3:45 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(January 12, 2019 at 1:29 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Atlass, we would love nothing more than to leave the middle east entirely. But sorry, with Sunnis and Shiites, Saudi Arabia and Iran, and Israel at each other's throats. Maybe it would be better if both Saudi Arabia and Iran to give up on their religious run governments.  Europe went through their Christian version during the Dark Ages, and even in America because of religious bullshit, even we treated Native Americans and blacks and women like shit.

None of what I said means America gets everything right. But you are over simplifying a complex region full of many different sects and powers that are still unfortunately stuck in a dark age religious past, including too many Israelis.

The three religions have been fighting over that region for centuries. Maybe Muslims and Jews and Christians need to face the fact religion is a very easy way for powers to get their respective societies to die in these wars.

And yes Atlass, land is fought over, not just for religious reasons, but for control over resources. Other species fight for control over resources too. Mammals like elephants, and lions, especially males, can be very territorial. Humans are no different.

Without the west -especially the British Empire-, there wouldn't be either Saudi Arabia or Israel in the first place.

The Sykes-Picot agreement created all this mess; and it is a western invention executed by western hands, with the help of local traitors that acted like a proxy for the western powers behind the agreement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%8..._Agreement

The native Americans were treated like shit partly because of religion, and partly because of racism. White European culture proved to be very very racist in many occasions. Now the good people in Europe started to shrink and we are seeing the disgusting rise of the right once again.

We have brains, we should share those resources not fight over them.

Yes we have brains, and humans don't always use them.

My point is human conflict is far older than Sunnis and Shiites and Jews and Christians.

I agree, we should share those resources. Maybe the real issue is that we have 62 uber billionaires worldwide from several nations, friend and foe alike, whom have the combined wealth of 3 billion of the rest of humanity.

Again, in my perfect world there would be no greed, no war. But as it stands now, between the closed states of Saudi Arabia, Iran and the west whose governments allow criticism of power, while we are not perfect, we have more opportunity to challenge our powers without using violence.

I don't just know you here. I have run into people on line from Iran too, people from Israel, whom feel like I do. That we are stuck, all of us, under powers whom forget that we are not a separate species.

There really are good people everywhere. But there is nothing good about forgetting we are not a separate species.

I don't want a war with Iran, or Saudi Arabia, and I have not always been happy with our military actions. But, the reality is that our planet is all connected and both friend and foe alike have nukes. Getting involved or staying out is not a cut and dry thing. I wish it were, but it isn't. 

But please trust me regardless, I hate our right wing, I hate Trump and I hate Bibi.

And of course Native Americans were treated like shit because of religion, so were blacks and women, and gays too. 

Religion in all its labels, is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy, because nobody can agree as to which religion/sect should lead. You cant rid the world of it, but humans can do better to put a wall between religion and politics.

---

Atlass very serious question outside religion for you.

In theory if you could visit me, and stay with me in my house, do you think I would have you arrested or murdered? If the answer is "no" then that should tell you you cant think in terms of black and white. I hate that life is messy, and I hate that humans fight. But neither you or me have super powers to get a perfect world.

Atlas, you make some valid points. I think you would get better, more productive conversation if you turned down the heat some, though.

(January 12, 2019 at 4:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Yes we have brains, and humans don't always use them.

My point is human conflict is far older than Sunnis and Shiites and Jews and Christians.

I agree, we should share those resources. Maybe the real issue is that we have 62 uber billionaires worldwide from several nations, friend and foe alike, whom have the combined wealth of 3 billion of the rest of humanity.

Again, in my perfect world there would be no greed, no war. But as it stands now, between the closed states of Saudi Arabia, Iran and the west whose governments allow criticism of power, while we are not perfect, we have more opportunity to challenge our powers without using violence.

I don't just know you here. I have run into people on line from Iran too, people from Israel, whom feel like I do. That we are stuck, all of us, under powers whom forget that we are not a separate species.

There really are good people everywhere. But there is nothing good about forgetting we are not a separate species.

I don't want a war with Iran, or Saudi Arabia, and I have not always been happy with our military actions. But, the reality is that our planet is all connected and both friend and foe alike have nukes. Getting involved or staying out is not a cut and dry thing. I wish it were, but it isn't. 

But please trust me regardless, I hate our right wing, I hate Trump and I hate Bibi.

And of course Native Americans were treated like shit because of religion, so were blacks and women, and gays too. 

Religion in all its labels, is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy, because nobody can agree as to which religion/sect should lead. You cant rid the world of it, but humans can do better to put a wall between religion and politics.

---

Atlass very serious question outside religion for you.

In theory if you could visit me, and stay with me in my house, do you think I would have you arrested or murdered? If the answer is "no" then that should tell you you cant think in terms of black and white. I hate that life is messy, and I hate that humans fight. But neither you or me have super powers to get a perfect world.

The world today is not evolving around "closed states VS open states": it is evolving around the super powers and their interest only.
The rest of the world is very marginal; usually it is "used" to satisfy the goals and interests of a sponsor superpower.

Take Saudi Arabia for example. Its sponsor is the USA, a very large chunk of the state's economy is invested in the sponsor's homeland, the sponsor's military has the right to act like a native army too. In the throne of this place there is a corrupted, not elected family that rules with a fist of steel, the ruling family is kept loyal by giving it the allowance to do whatever it wants with lots of the money. Any attempt to shake their throne is met with the sponsor's intervention. Any attempt to break free from the sponsor's circle of influence is met harshly and probably the politician who lead the break will be hanged; executed.

This equation, Brian, is what makes thousands of dictators safe and well.
There is no chance that the western governments don't know about the brutalities taking place in the prisons of their sponsored regimes. There is even official evidence that superpowers helped too in the torturing and killing of locals who refused this sad reality and wanted change.

---

(January 12, 2019 at 4:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

---

Atlass very serious question outside religion for you.

In theory if you could visit me, and stay with me in my house, do you think I would have you arrested or murdered? If the answer is "no" then that should tell you you cant think in terms of black and white. I hate that life is messy, and I hate that humans fight. But neither you or me have super powers to get a perfect world.

I knew you for a long time -since 2014; maybe??-, so I doubt that you will get me arrested, or tell an Arab embassy about my existence, in other words I can trust you

Black and white are mere skin colors and everybody know it; even racists. It's very ironic and sad that a human might be so desperate to believe in a label; it's so sad to find no label to defend but your own "skin-color". Tells you a lot about how backward a racist is. We have no superpower but even the tiniest thing can make a difference.

(January 12, 2019 at 3:45 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(January 12, 2019 at 1:29 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Atlass, we would love nothing more than to leave the middle east entirely. But sorry, with Sunnis and Shiites, Saudi Arabia and Iran, and Israel at each other's throats. Maybe it would be better if both Saudi Arabia and Iran to give up on their religious run governments.  Europe went through their Christian version during the Dark Ages, and even in America because of religious bullshit, even we treated Native Americans and blacks and women like shit.

None of what I said means America gets everything right. But you are over simplifying a complex region full of many different sects and powers that are still unfortunately stuck in a dark age religious past, including too many Israelis.

The three religions have been fighting over that region for centuries. Maybe Muslims and Jews and Christians need to face the fact religion is a very easy way for powers to get their respective societies to die in these wars.

And yes Atlass, land is fought over, not just for religious reasons, but for control over resources. Other species fight for control over resources too. Mammals like elephants, and lions, especially males, can be very territorial. Humans are no different.

Without the west -especially the British Empire-, there wouldn't be either Saudi Arabia or Israel in the first place.

The Sykes-Picot agreement created all this mess; and it is a western invention executed by western hands, with the help of local traitors that acted like a proxy for the western powers behind the agreement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%8..._Agreement

The native Americans were treated like shit partly because of religion, and partly because of racism. White European culture proved to be very very racist in many occasions. Now the good people in Europe started to shrink and we are seeing the disgusting rise of the right once again.

We have brains, we should share those resources not fight over them.

You seem to be demonising a whole race of people, there is a word for that, now what is it. oh yes.

You are a racist.

(January 13, 2019 at 9:51 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: You seem to be demonising a whole race of people, there is a word for that, now what is it. oh yes.

You are a racist.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-57986-p...pid1876627

Quote:AtlasS33 said:

When I say "westerners" or the "west", I don't generalize on all western people, but I refer to the regimes ruling there. It's innate capacity in political discussion that the other part's intention is a non-racist or xenophobic one.

When I say the Russians, I refer to the regime. When I say the Americans, I refer to the regime.
I don't see the post-fix "people" in my accusations.

I suppose the regimes on the middle east are better?

(January 13, 2019 at 3:36 pm)LastPoet Wrote: I suppose the regimes on the middle east are better?

No. Just like I said, the governments in the Middle East are regimes controlled by traitors and criminals who agreed to serve the interests of some western powers.

See this comment:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-57986-p...pid1876679

Quote:AtlasS33 said:

The Sykes-Picot agreement created all this mess; and it is a western invention executed by western hands, with the help of local traitors that acted like a proxy for the western powers behind the agreement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%8..._Agreement

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement][/url]

(January 13, 2019 at 8:01 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(January 12, 2019 at 4:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Yes we have brains, and humans don't always use them.

My point is human conflict is far older than Sunnis and Shiites and Jews and Christians.

I agree, we should share those resources. Maybe the real issue is that we have 62 uber billionaires worldwide from several nations, friend and foe alike, whom have the combined wealth of 3 billion of the rest of humanity.

Again, in my perfect world there would be no greed, no war. But as it stands now, between the closed states of Saudi Arabia, Iran and the west whose governments allow criticism of power, while we are not perfect, we have more opportunity to challenge our powers without using violence.

I don't just know you here. I have run into people on line from Iran too, people from Israel, whom feel like I do. That we are stuck, all of us, under powers whom forget that we are not a separate species.

There really are good people everywhere. But there is nothing good about forgetting we are not a separate species.

I don't want a war with Iran, or Saudi Arabia, and I have not always been happy with our military actions. But, the reality is that our planet is all connected and both friend and foe alike have nukes. Getting involved or staying out is not a cut and dry thing. I wish it were, but it isn't. 

But please trust me regardless, I hate our right wing, I hate Trump and I hate Bibi.

And of course Native Americans were treated like shit because of religion, so were blacks and women, and gays too. 

Religion in all its labels, is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy, because nobody can agree as to which religion/sect should lead. You cant rid the world of it, but humans can do better to put a wall between religion and politics.

---

Atlass very serious question outside religion for you.

In theory if you could visit me, and stay with me in my house, do you think I would have you arrested or murdered? If the answer is "no" then that should tell you you cant think in terms of black and white. I hate that life is messy, and I hate that humans fight. But neither you or me have super powers to get a perfect world.

The world today is not evolving around "closed states VS open states": it is evolving around the super powers and their interest only.
The rest of the world is very marginal; usually it is "used" to satisfy the goals and interests of a sponsor superpower.

Take Saudi Arabia for example. Its sponsor is the USA, a very large chunk of the state's economy is invested in the sponsor's homeland, the sponsor's military has the right to act like a native army too. In the throne of this place there is a corrupted, not elected family that rules with a fist of steel, the ruling family is kept loyal by giving it the allowance to do whatever it wants with lots of the money. Any attempt to shake their throne is met with the sponsor's intervention. Any attempt to break free from the sponsor's circle of influence is met harshly and probably the politician who lead the break will be hanged; executed.

This equation, Brian, is what makes thousands of dictators safe and well.
There is no chance that the western governments don't know about the brutalities taking place in the prisons of their sponsored regimes. There is even official evidence that superpowers helped too in the torturing and killing of locals who refused this sad reality and wanted change.

---

(January 12, 2019 at 4:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

---

Atlass very serious question outside religion for you.

In theory if you could visit me, and stay with me in my house, do you think I would have you arrested or murdered? If the answer is "no" then that should tell you you cant think in terms of black and white. I hate that life is messy, and I hate that humans fight. But neither you or me have super powers to get a perfect world.

I knew you for a long time -since 2014; maybe??-, so I doubt that you will get me arrested, or tell an Arab embassy about my existence, in other words I can trust you

Black and white are mere skin colors and everybody know it; even racists. It's very ironic and sad that a human might be so desperate to believe in a label; it's so sad to find no label to defend but your own "skin-color". Tells you a lot about how backward a racist is. We have no superpower but even the tiniest thing can make a difference.

If I could snap my fingers right now, and rid Saudi Arabia and Iran, and North Korea of their asshole leaders I would. If I could rid Israel of Bibi and America of Trump, I WOULD.

I wish there was a simple solution to solve the worlds problems and end war, but we do not live in a perfect world and there are far too many bullies and war mongers in our species and in an age of nukes humanity has to accept mutual destruction.

All I want from you is to stop thinking every single human living in the west agrees with everything our leaders do. Just like I accept you don't like the power you live under.

Racism is a real thing for sure, but "race" is still an artificial construct for the reason you just said "skin color". "Skin color" is a matter of genes. It is not a moral code and skin color has no magic power to make a Christian or Muslim or Jew only do good, or only do bad. And as I said before, humans were being both cruel and compassionate to each other long before those religions existed. And those three started in the same region of the world, that prior to, was occupied by polytheists. And I have no doubt that if enough Christians, and Muslims and Jews living in Mesopotamia took DNA tests, they would find the are more closely genetically related than those who have migrated to other parts of the world.

Religion is the root cause of the divisions of those three and that allows racism to fester.

(January 12, 2019 at 1:29 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Atlass, we would love nothing more than to leave the middle east entirely. But sorry, with Sunnis and Shiites, Saudi Arabia and Iran, and Israel at each other's throats. Maybe it would be better if both Saudi Arabia and Iran to give up on their religious run governments.  Europe went through their Christian version during the Dark Ages, and even in America because of religious bullshit, even we treated Native Americans and blacks and women like shit.

None of what I said means America gets everything right. But you are over simplifying a complex region full of many different sects and powers that are still unfortunately stuck in a dark age religious past, including too many Israelis.

The three religions have been fighting over that region for centuries. Maybe Muslims and Jews and Christians need to face the fact religion is a very easy way for powers to get their respective societies to die in these wars.

And yes Atlass, land is fought over, not just for religious reasons, but for control over resources. Other species fight for control over resources too. Mammals like elephants, and lions, especially males, can be very territorial. Humans are no different.

What you say about religions fighting each other in the region is true.  But it's only part of the picture.  A good deal of the current tension in the Middle East can be traced directly back to US and UK exploitation of the region a century or so ago.   

When these essentially colonial powers pulled out they drew up a bunch of artificial borders -- without regard to existing cultural or ethnic populations -- specifically to provide a convenient means of retaining western (primarily US and UK) control over resources (like oil) from the ostensibly "independent" countries that emerged.  When any of the resulting countries tried to take control of their own assets they were slapped down by western interests.  

The overthrow of Iran's government in 1953 by a CIA supported coup, and the subsequent installation and support of Pahlavi's puppet government by the US, to protect western oil interests, is just one example.  People got so fed up with the resulting brutal 30-year dictatorship that they were willing to do pretty much anything to get rid of it, including opening up their otherwise progressive country to a strict theocracy, by inviting Khomeni back.

Western (meaning European and US) colonial powers did essentially the same thing to sub-Saharan Africa, and with essentially the same result.